Partner showed up reeking of booze...

[STXmedic]

I fail to see why an EMS professional should smell like a bar rag at the start of their shift. Thats the red flag to me.

Maybe he accidentally spilled beer on himself while getting ready for work.... Happens to everybody....

Y'all are right. These things, when all taken individually, do not equate to being drunk. However, this guy doesn't have just one of the symptoms we've been talking about. If y'all want to be naive or "bros" and put yourself in danger, then be my guest. This guy isn't driving me anywhere until he's determined fit for duty. It's not worth my life or well-being.

 

[BigPoppaBlueDevil]

Thanks to everyone for all the advice and suggestions. I spoke with my supervisor today and, given the nature of the situation and the cumulative details, the company is going to open an investigation into it. Thankfully I work for a great company and (whether YOU think he was impaired or not) his behavior is not representative of the type of employee they want to keep around. As I expected, my supe said that if a similar situation occurs again I should call him immediately and explain what is going on. He said my personal safety and most important and if my partner ends up not being impaired (if they get a BAC of 0.00) then that is great, but it's better safe than sorry.

 

[SSwain]

If this happened in my volly service the person would be told by the chief his or her services are no longer required. My service has a strict no alcohol wjile on call policy if you smelling of booze you are released from service and told to turn in you issued equipment. When not on call we cam consume alcohol but not to excess.

Same here. One local area volunteer FF was let go for showing up to a structure fire while under the influence. Long story, but turns out someone who stopped to rubber-neck the incident noticed said FF, and had seen him at a bar right before the call came in. Comments were made by spectators, and overheard by a LEO who was controlling the scene. LEO talked to the Chief....end result, FF was told to breathylize, and wound up losing his FF job.

Now...being from WI, that might be considered normal, but a lot of our Departments have no tolerance policies in place, and they get used.

 

[NomadicMedic]

All well and good that most of you say "the chief would say your services are no longer needed" or "I would send him home"... However, without a clearly defined policy, that includes a determination of fitness for duty and the associated repercussions, you are opening yourself up for possible legal action.

Because I'll tell you what... if I wasn't drunk and got sent home and my service didn't have a clearly defined policy, the next phone call my boss would receive would be from my attorney.

 

[mycrofft]

An attorney who would defend an employee who turned up impaired would have to be pretty hard up or the client is well-heeled.

OK, using the "had an odor suggestive of alcohol" settings and filters: tell the boss the partner is sick and refuse to ride. Mention the odor. After all, it might be ketoacidosis...

Rule of thumb; when you start ignoring parts of the presentation (just mention running a red light, when the primary signs were sleeping on the job, smelling in a manner suggestive of alcohol, etc), and citing regional acceptance of being hung over and are unwilling to take a guy off a rig who is impaired because he might sue you, then you have abandoned science and common sense, and gone into infantile excuse making and hairsplitting such as kids do to try to outwit their parents.

Impaired people make mistakes in driving, in care, in paperwork. They require people to cover for them, creating an atmosphere of mutually excusing and condoning second rate care, and exposing your co-workers to professional harm for covering up for you.

Get the boss and let the boss sort it out. If you are still uneasy working with that person, politely refuse. IF that doesn't work, resign.

 

[NomadicMedic]

Hey Mycrofft, did you read my response? I said, "if the service doesn't have a clearly defined policy".

Now, obviously, if a guy is obviously so impaired that he can't stand up, the decision is obvious, however, if i was simply tired and cranky from my allergies (which I am right now) and some 20 year old EMT wrongly accused me of intoxication and a former McDonalds French fry cooker turned EMS supervisor sent me home based on "what he thought", rather than an accepted and vetted process to determine fitness for duty, there's some serious liability placed on the credibility and accuracy of the reporting and discipline issuing parties.

Most supervisors are not given any tools or training to determine whether an employee is for for duty or not. And a carnivorous lawyer will take that lack of training, and eat them for lunch.

 

[mycrofft]

DEMedic, I did, and largely agree. I don't know of a company with a clinical definition of "drunk" or "hungover" in its policies. I suppose a suit for wrongful something or other could be filed (good luck), but a bit of cell phone video of an unsteady or slurred employee ought to do the trick.

The "reasonable person" principle comes into play. Would "a reasonable person" allow such an employee on the street? Or on the clock?

 

[NomadicMedic]

Read up a little further. As I mentioned above, my department has "fitness for duty standards" included in the SOP.

I don't believe anyone who is presenting as impaired should be allowed on the truck, but a wrong accusation could have lasting implications. If you're going to take action, you better rain your people and have a policy in place.

 

[mycrofft]

Sure. As I said, sounds good. Sounds as though they have either had legal advice, or been burned before.

 

[VFlutter]

So, my partner showed up for our 0700 shift today and reeked of alcohol. I know he/she went out last night because a few coworkers were talking about their weekend plans at station earlier in the week. He/she was asleep on the station floor (no couches) when I arrived to clock in this morning and I noticed the smell as soon as we got in the rig. We had no calls holding so we drove a short distance to post. At the first (and thankfully only) stoplight we encountered, we needed to make a left turn. The light was green for through traffic but left turn lane had a red arrow. He/she stopped, then turned on the red arrow. Thankfully there was no oncoming traffic. I pointed out that the arrow was red and he/she said "What are you gonna do? Give me a ticket?"

There are two sides to every story. To play the Devil's advocate...

You are assuming the person went out the night before based off overhearing people talk about weekend plans. Did you actually see the person out drinking? If not then you do not know anything.

Are there restrictions or a policy against sleeping during a shift?

The strong smell of alcohol is worrying and cause for concern but not really proof of anything.

So they made a left on red when there was no on coming traffic? Ya that is a traffic violation but not something I would be running to my superiors about.

Thanks to everyone for all the advice and suggestions. I spoke with my supervisor today and, given the nature of the situation and the cumulative details, the company is going to open an investigation into it. Thankfully I work for a great company and (whether YOU think he was impaired or not) his behavior is not representative of the type of employee they want to keep around. As I expected, my supe said that if a similar situation occurs again I should call him immediately and explain what is going on. He said my personal safety and most important and if my partner ends up not being impaired (if they get a BAC of 0.00) then that is great, but it's better safe than sorry.

So you post a scenario and then tell us it does not matter if we think he was impaired or not? Then why even bother describing the circumstances if you want us to automatically assume he is guilty.

Are you qualified to judge who is representative of the type of employee your company wants to keep around? You stated you are fairly new.


If you honestly feel like your safety is jeopardy or that your partner was significantly impaired then by all means report it. However I would tread carefully accusing people of something without adequate reason. If you called my supervisor claiming that I was intoxicated and it turns out I wasn't then you would have some serious explaining to do for the potential harm you caused my reputation and credibility.

 

[BigPoppaBlueDevil]

You are assuming the person went out the night before based off overhearing people talk about weekend plans. Did you actually see the person out drinking? If not then you do not know anything.

Later in the day, my partner admitted to staying up until 0300 and having a beer shotgunning contest before calling it a night. My company has a minimum 8hrs "bottle to throttle" policy.



Are there restrictions or a policy against sleeping during a shift?

Yes, no employess are allowed to sleep at the station in question. It is an agreement with the company that leases the building to us.



The strong smell of alcohol is worrying and cause for concern but not really proof of anything.

If you were a patient would YOU want to be driven by someone who smelled of alcohol? I don't think so. And DKA is a lame excuse for that given the circumstances.



So they made a left on red when there was no on coming traffic? Ya that is a traffic violation but not something I would be running to my superiors about.

I agree, that alone would not cause me to report him. It was an unnecessary risk that put my personal safety in question, and his dismissive attitude when I pointed it out was concerning to me. Throw in the smell of alcohol and the fact that I was teching every call and wouldn't be able to see the road and stop him from making another dangerous driving error, and it is a different story.



So you post a scenario and then tell us it does not matter if we think he was impaired or not? Then why even bother describing the circumstances if you want us to automatically assume he is guilty.

Because I was the only one who was there and in my opinion, he was impaired. I was curious as to how others would handle the same situation.



Are you qualified to judge who is representative of the type of employee your company wants to keep around? You stated you are fairly new.

What company wants to employ someone who shows up unfit to work, picks and chooses when to obey traffic laws when there isn't even a patient on board, and doesn't seem to care about the consequences?

 

[SkyRider]

Partner showed up reeking of booze....

Being new to an agency is tough.. You don't want to do the right thing for fear of doing the wrong thing, you don't want to be labeled as a snitch, you don't want to jump to conclusions. It is very difficult. On the other hand, if your partner is under the influence, it can go wrong in so many different directions. I had a partner who had had a late night. He was my driver. He reeked of alcohol and it was pretty disturbing. I talked to my partner, in this instance we had been partners for a very long time, and I told him he needed to prove to me he was good to go. He was actually ok, and after a shower and teeth brushing, we were good. If this had been a new partner who reeked of alcohol, ran a light and then got snotty after I called him/her on it, I would be putting the ambulance out of service. There are too many idiots out there who are ripped and kill others for me to play :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored:-foot game with my partners feelings. I am not going to die or be crippled because my partner might get butt-hurt when I call him on it.

 

[Fox800]

I'm pretty shocked by the number of people that would just shrug it off or talk to him one on one. Sorry, no dice. I'm not putting my safety or my patient's safety at risk because my partner screwed up and performed an intervention incorrectly/fell asleep while driving/ran a red light and got the ambulance T-boned.

Report to a supervisor and go out of service.

 

[RocketMedic]

Being new to an agency is tough.. You don't want to do the right thing for fear of doing the wrong thing, you don't want to be labeled as a snitch, you don't want to jump to conclusions. It is very difficult. On the other hand, if your partner is under the influence, it can go wrong in so many different directions. I had a partner who had had a late night. He was my driver. He reeked of alcohol and it was pretty disturbing. I talked to my partner, in this instance we had been partners for a very long time, and I told him he needed to prove to me he was good to go. He was actually ok, and after a shower and teeth brushing, we were good. If this had been a new partner who reeked of alcohol, ran a light and then got snotty after I called him/her on it, I would be putting the ambulance out of service. There are too many idiots out there who are ripped and kill others for me to play :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored:-foot game with my partners feelings. I am not going to die or be crippled because my partner might get butt-hurt when I call him on it.

If you smell like alcohol, you're still drunk.

 

[RocketMedic]

I'm pretty shocked by the number of people that would just shrug it off or talk to him one on one. Sorry, no dice. I'm not putting my safety or my patient's safety at risk because my partner screwed up and performed an intervention incorrectly/fell asleep while driving/ran a red light and got the ambulance T-boned.

Report to a supervisor and go out of service.

+1. His failure to act responsibly.

 

[errey]

I'm surprised this is even a debate, the op did the right thing by reporting it. Based on the description from the op I too would have reported it right away. I would not risk my safety or patient safety in fear of wrongfully accusing the partner. if I reported my partner was unfit for duty and it turned out he/she was fit for duty and my superiors decided to punish me for a wrongful accusation after the justification the op explained well... That's not a company I have an interest in working for.

 

[Aidey]

If you smell like alcohol, you're still drunk.

This there evidence to back this up, or is it anecdotal? And is this before or after a shower?

 

[Fox800]

I'm surprised this is even a debate, the op did the right thing by reporting it. Based on the description from the op I too would have reported it right away. I would not risk my safety or patient safety in fear of wrongfully accusing the partner. if I reported my partner was unfit for duty and it turned out he/she was fit for duty and my superiors decided to punish me for a wrongful accusation after the justification the op explained well... That's not a company I have an interest in working for.

This x10000000

 

[RocketMedic]

This there evidence to back this up, or is it anecdotal? And is this before or after a shower?

Does it matter? Would Veneficus tolerate Dr. Brandyscotch scrubbing in with him on a case when they smelled like booze, regardless of BAC? Would anyone here believe a patient who was found sleeping and smelled like ETOH with no history of diabetes if they were told "I aint been drinking?" Would 46Young or Poetic go into a fire with a drunk behind them? I sure as heck wont breach-and-clear a structure with a drunken 11B near me.

Aidey, the vast majority of human beings don't smell like alcohol unless they're exposed to it. Absent a call where you literally have beer spilled on you and have not been able to change, you should not smell like ETOH when working. It is sloppy, unprofessional, indefensible and pretty much impossible to do without drinking. As another poster mentioned, is there a reason why we should allow our drunks to work when they can even be perceived as drunk? Sure, they might not be legally intoxicated. They might blow a .000. But they still can be perceived as drunk, and should thus be treated as unprepared for and unable to work. Would you accept a partner who showed up smelling of urine?

Alcoholism is a disease that can have very real impacts on everyone physically around someone. If the OPs partner had wrecked, thats two careers gone. Potentially, multiple injured and dead, and a hellish PR nightmare. Look at what happened to EMSA in 2011 when we hired an EMT with a prior DUI. http://m.newsok.com/emsa-driver-charged-in-fatal-crash-fired/article/3633571. Regardless of whether or not he changed his ways, regardless of his training, he is the face of alcoholism in EMS. Reckless, stupid, and guilty of vehicular manslaughter. Look at the uproar- the wreck itself is secondary to the prior DUI! The public was literally more concerned that EMSA/PPI had hired a drunk than they were about 83-oncoming on a 35mph road. Now put yourself at a for-profit IFT, a private 911, or even a fire department. That drunk isnt just his own job or his partner. That drunk is lost contracts, lost IFTs, lost dialysis transports. That drunk is a change in 911 contractors. That drunk is settlement money, increased premiums, extra scrutiny. That drunk is more money spent to pave over the damage. That drunk's firing is your raise, your new radio, your shift bonus. Even on a city department- those are businesses too. And that's before that drunk leaves the station.

Go ahead, Aidey. Im very interested in how it is possible to smell like ETOH and not be ill or impaired by raging diabetes and be fit to provide patient care. Defend making your patient and your partner wonder if you are intoxicated. If they have been drinking and "just need a shower and a toothbrush", they're still unfit for duty. Enjoy station duty if you want. Youre not getting on a rig.

 

[ExpatMedic0]

Does it matter? Would Veneficus tolerate Dr. Brandyscotch scrubbing in with him on a case when they smelled like booze, regardless of BAC?

Paging Veneficus: Anyone seen this guy lately?