Paramedics get ultrasound

daedalus

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berkeman

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Good tool, IMO. Expensive, but definitely good if you can get the funding (and the extra training). Seems like a good addition to the criteria for Level 1 Trauma transport triage protocols.
 

Linuss

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The county to the north of me (Wise County) has had ultrasound on its units since March of 08 (http://ems.co.wise.tx.us/sfast_ultrasound.htm)

I believe the county to the east of Dallas (Rockwall) has ultrasound as well.



Funny how it's the 3rd service agencies getting them, and not private / fire based...



/me waits for ATCEMS gets it.
 

JPINFV

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I hope to hell that they kept records and can put together a research paper on the effects that ultrasound had in their system. My big question is how often are they going to be useful? The "maybe needs a trauma center" is a small slip between "doesn't need" and "needs."
 

46Young

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The county to the north of me (Wise County) has had ultrasound on its units since March of 08 (http://ems.co.wise.tx.us/sfast_ultrasound.htm)

I believe the county to the east of Dallas (Rockwall) has ultrasound as well.



Funny how it's the 3rd service agencies getting them, and not private / fire based...



/me waits for ATCEMS gets it.

Unless I missed something in the article, it would seem that Temple Terrace is a FD with fire based EMS, with over 70% call volume in EMS.

http://www.templeterrace.com/fire/operations.htm
 

triemal04

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The county to the north of me (Wise County) has had ultrasound on its units since March of 08 (http://ems.co.wise.tx.us/sfast_ultrasound.htm)

I believe the county to the east of Dallas (Rockwall) has ultrasound as well.



Funny how it's the 3rd service agencies getting them, and not private / fire based...



/me waits for ATCEMS gets it.
You really come out with the best comments sometimes, you know that? I mean, really cutting accurate stuff.
From the article:
To Fire Chief Keith Chapman, their value was obvious.
he dreamed of possessing similar transportable tools for the city's 45-member team of firefighter-paramedics.

His vision recently turned into reality
And because I'm really bored tonight, and to prove the point, here's the link to their own press release. http://www.templeterrace.com/fire/releases2009/Ultrasound_101209.pdf

Anyway. This could potentially be something that starts to slowly get more widespread use. It is/was being used by several agencies in Colorado (I think; somewhere out west), and, while found to be effective when used, it was also found that it wasn't generally being used except during longer transports. Which, at least initially, is to be expected. Hopefully it continues; if used properly and with the appropriate education it'd make a great diagnostic tool for the field.
 
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daedalus

daedalus

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I hope to hell that they kept records and can put together a research paper on the effects that ultrasound had in their system. My big question is how often are they going to be useful? The "maybe needs a trauma center" is a small slip between "doesn't need" and "needs."

As do I.
 

VentMedic

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Good tool, IMO. Expensive, but definitely good if you can get the funding (and the extra training). Seems like a good addition to the criteria for Level 1 Trauma transport triage protocols.

Florida already has very specific trauma triage protocols. I seriously doubt if they are not going to take a patient to a Level 1 trauma center which is not that far away from them just because they think they ruled something out in the field especially if the patient meets the trauma criteria established statewide. Getting an IFT to a trauma center from a local little General Hospital will waste several hours if they fail to follow the existing protocols.

We also had the US on our helicopter a few years ago but it made little difference in the distination or treatment and at a Level 1 trauma center there will be a surgeons. The money for the equipment, maintenance and training was put to much better use.

And yes this is a Fire based service as are many of the EMS services in Florida.
 
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Linuss

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Oh wow, triemal and 46 got a bit defensive on some wording there. Let me rephrase:
"Funny how in DFW, it's 3rd service agencies that are doing ultrasound, and not private / fire."


Obviously, Wise County and Rockwall county are Texas. So is ATCEMS. No mention of any other state. My bad for not making the clarification that I was speaking of Texas in my reply...



Chill pill?
 

46Young

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Oh wow, triemal and 46 got a bit defensive on some wording there. Let me rephrase:
"Funny how in DFW, it's 3rd service agencies that are doing ultrasound, and not private / fire."


Obviously, Wise County and Rockwall county are Texas. So is ATCEMS. No mention of any other state. My bad for not making the clarification that I was speaking of Texas in my reply...



Chill pill?

You made a blanket statement, and got called out on it. Your wording didn't leave any wiggle room for interpretation, it was quite straightforward.
 

Linuss

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Yes, straightforward.

Wise, Rockwall, and Austin/Travis counties... I can see how that can be mistaken for Florida.




My bad, won't happen again.
 

triemal04

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Oh wow, triemal and 46 got a bit defensive on some wording there. Let me rephrase:
"Funny how in DFW, it's 3rd service agencies that are doing ultrasound, and not private / fire."


Obviously, Wise County and Rockwall county are Texas. So is ATCEMS. No mention of any other state. My bad for not making the clarification that I was speaking of Texas in my reply...



Chill pill?
So let's see...in a thread about a fire department using ultrasound, you mention a couple of non-fire EMS agencies that use it, and then say:
Funny how it's the 3rd service agencies getting them, and not private / fire based...

Your responce is very clear in it's meaning, very unambiguous, and very wrong. You can backpedal all you want, but that doesn't change what you said. But hey, in the interest of letting people backpedal, let's go with that...of course, then your comment would simple mean...you need to think before you open your mouth, because your comments are otherwise unclear, innacurate gibberish.
 

Melclin

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Certainly makes sense to me.

But outside of certain applications like HEMS, and very rural ALS, I'm not quite sure its worth the money/effort for all the training. The choppers have them here.

If you are metro ALS, 15 mins from a major hospital there doesn't seem like much point.

I just can't see the information that you would get from a US to be of much clinical help enough of the time to justify the expense.
 

46Young

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Yes, straightforward.

Wise, Rockwall, and Austin/Travis counties... I can see how that can be mistaken for Florida.




My bad, won't happen again.

Don't feign ignorance. This thread is based on the article about the FD, in which it's clear that they're FBEMS, securing the equipment, the first dept in the Southeast to do so.
 

Linuss

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*sigh*


Can someone aside from Triemal and 46 read my original post and tell me if I forgot to put "Wise", "Rockwall" and "ATCEMS" in it? I could have sworn I did, and I'm quite confident that those 3(4) counties are in Texas, as am I, and is what I was commenting on.










But, if you REALLY want to argue this... You don't win classroom debates in school and not master semantics :p
 

Melclin

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Vent, why wasn't the HEMS ultrasound useful for the ED?

Is it possible for pre-hospital ultra-sound to be used in any way to triage straight to theatre in the same sense as pre-hospital twelve leads allow for triage direct to cath labs? Seems like there are things that the ED would want to do first (inbetween EMS and theatre) but does an EMS US cut anytime off the ED process? Any good papers on it?
 

Linuss

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Vent, why wasn't the HEMS ultrasound useful for the ED?

Is it possible for pre-hospital ultra-sound to be used in any way to triage straight to theatre in the same sense as pre-hospital twelve leads allow for triage direct to cath labs? Seems like there are things that the ED would want to do first (inbetween EMS and theatre) but does an EMS US cut anytime off the ED process? Any good papers on it?

Sort of like the FAST exam? The link I posted in my first reply shows how Wise County uses ultrasound for trauma.
 

JPINFV

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But, if you REALLY want to argue this... You don't win classroom debates in school and not master semantics :p

Just stop. There's no sense trying to have a discussion with fire department appeasers.
 

Melclin

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I get the idea of a FAST. I was wondering why, specifically, it was that Vent's service had found it, or something like it, not to be of use.

I get that a FAST exam can be of some use in rural trauma situations (there's a FAST trial going on here rurally, in NSW I think), my question was more to do with what the ED can do with the information gathered in a EMS FAST.

Is it enough information to go straight to theatre with? If ED's aren't doing that sort of thing is it because its not feasible clinically or is it because they don't trust EMS FASTs. Does it/could it actually cut any time of the accident to knife time?
 

Burlyskink

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*sigh*


Can someone aside from Triemal and 46 read my original post and tell me if I forgot to put "Wise", "Rockwall" and "ATCEMS" in it? I could have sworn I did, and I'm quite confident that those 3(4) counties are in Texas, as am I, and is what I was commenting on.










But, if you REALLY want to argue this... You don't win classroom debates in school and not master semantics :p

I would just like you to know, the first time that I read your first post in this thread I understood completely...

I also hope that they keep records and releases that information on how these affect their system.
 
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