paramedic to rn bridge_excelsior program

Journey

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I'll just leave this here: "Allnurses.com - Excelsior Grads - Where are they now?". You may all feel free to ignore whatever date ranges and individual posts you'd like. :)

As I already mentioned you can always find a forum with like opinions just like this one.

Also, if you read through the posts, most are working LVNs who probably were employed by the same hospital and got grandfathered into some positions just like the LVNs at my hospital system did 10 - 15 years ago.

I will say it again, for a working LVN, EC might not be a bad way to go especially if the hospital they are currently employed with support them. For a person brand new to nursing and has never worked in a hospital, I would not recommend it. I would hate to be a new grad with no hospital experience relying just on the EC ADN especially for the next 5 years.
 

rook901

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Also, if you read through the posts, most are working LVNs who probably were employed by the same hospital and got grandfathered into some positions just like the LVNs at my hospital system did 10 - 15 years ago.

I did read through the posts. All of them. Most were LPN's. Many were Paramedics. Some were hired into their same unit. Many have brand new jobs. Dismiss 20 pages of EC grads' experiences if you like. I'm just putting it out there for review.

I will say it again, for a working LVN, EC might not be a bad way to go especially if the hospital they are currently employed with support them. For a person brand new to nursing and has never worked in a hospital, I would not recommend it. I would hate to be a new grad with no hospital experience relying just on the EC ADN especially for the next 5 years.

I wouldn't. All EC grads have a basic medical or nursing background as obtained through their career before entering the program. All EC grads are vetted by the CPNE, which tests your ability to function as a first day new grad RN in a hospital setting. All EC grads are going to get the same on-the-job orientation and training that traditional students are going to get following employment. Most of the ones that just don't get hospital nursing are going to be washed out by the FCCA or the CPNE.

No new grad, EC or traditional, is going to be able to hit the hospital floor running on their own on day one. A small number of EC grads may actually make it all the way through and still just not get it, and may not survive in a hospital environment. The same holds true for traditional ADN's and even traditional BSN's or direct entry MSN's. Some people just can't make it when they hit the real world after graduation, regardless of what program they attended.

Tell me a story about one EC grad that you personally know offline that isn't capable of working as a competent RN in a hospital, and I'll tell you stories about five that I personally know offline that are successful, competent RN's in the hospital setting (two of which are medics with no nursing background prior to EC). As a bonus story, I'll tell you about a traditional BSN that claimed to have several years of ICU experience that didn't know her *** from a hole in the ground. ;)

As to your very last statement, I do agree with the 5 year comment, although not just for EC grads. It's only going to be a matter of time before ADN's, regardless of what program they went through, are going to find fewer and fewer jobs available to them as more hospitals are requiring BSN's. Anyone who gets their ADN and doesn't progress to BSN is going to be left behind in the years to come, in the same way that LPN's in many parts of the country have been left behind in employment opportunities.
 
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Journey

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Like I said before. Be happy you have a job where you are. You may not have been so lucky somewhere else.

I do know several Paramedics who went through the EC program and who will never work as an RN unless they can find a decent internship that will give them experience with the basics of nursing. They also are not too vain to admit the program did not provide them with the needed clinicals. Actually, it provided them with none. The most dangerous providers are those who don't know just how much they don't know but yet keep plodding along believing they are the best thing ever without a thought of how much they might be cheating the patient.
 

rook901

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Like I said before. Be happy you have a job where you are. You may not have been so lucky somewhere else.

True for anyone with an ADN these days.

I do know several Paramedics who went through the EC program and who will never work as an RN unless they can find a decent internship that will give them experience with the basics of nursing.

If they didn't understand "the basics of nursing", how did they even pass the NCLEX? I'm not saying that passing a test makes you a good nurse, but there is a baseline of knowledge that's required to pass. Additionally, I'm not sure how someone that doesn't understand the basics of nursing could pass the CPNE, which presently only has a 62% pass rate.

They also are not too vain to admit the program did not provide them with the needed clinicals. Actually, it provided them with none. The most dangerous providers are those who don't know just how much they don't know but yet keep plodding along believing they are the best thing ever without a thought of how much they might be cheating the patient.

This can be applied to any program and any healthcare provider. The first thing that comes to mind are direct-entry MSN programs. You've got your BS in an unrelated field? Great! Here's two whole years of nursing education. You're now a Master's-prepared nurse with your CNL certification. Go get 'em!

Yes, I realize that these types of programs do have clinicals. Just shooting off on a tangent here to address your comment on the potential of dangerous providers that may not realize that they don't know everything.

In either case, EC or CC, ADN or BSN, MSN or direct-entry FNP, a new RN should find employment with a facility that will offer a comprehensive orientation/preceptorship.

I'll stick to my crazy belief that the opinion of NLNAC and 34 state Boards of Nursing outweighs any opinion on an internet forum. ;)
 

Journey

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I'll stick to my crazy belief that the opinion of NLNAC and 34 state Boards of Nursing outweighs any opinion on an internet forum. ;)

You seem to put alot of weight into the nursing forum where you seem to be getting all of your statistics from.

Most of those 34 states have added a minimum amount of clinical hours which must be completed before the EC grad will be considered.

Under no circumstances should one ever advocate for a nursing program that has no clinical hours and it is a big shame on the nursing profession to have allowed this program to continue. Nursing needs to move on to the BSN for entry and leave this mess behind them.

Passing a test is not very difficult. It is the nature of the work environment that fails most people who have never worked in a hospital.

You might want to take a look at the number of clinical hours an entry level MSN program has. You will find they may have just as many clinicals as the ADN program at a community college. Considering you are advocating for one that is only an ADN and offers nothing for clinicals, you don't have much to brag about.
 

medicRob

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No new grad, EC or traditional, is going to be able to hit the hospital floor running on their own on day one. .

No one from my program had a problem as we had worked the units in clinicals for several months before day one. I thought you were done with this thread? For someone who claims EC is as good a program as a traditional nursing school, you sure do spend a lot of time defending it (just a thought)...
 

SerumK

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Considering that you are a BSN student who is not yet a practicing nurse and has no input whatsoever in the hiring process at any facility, I question how many conversations you've actually had with nurse managers about Excelsior College. Sorry, but I'm fairly certain that you just made that story up.

Do you usually make a habit of calling people liars as it suits your emotions? I bet that endears you to many.

I spent many years on my prereqs and researching what path to my RN. talked to the NMs I knew personally and many more that were friends of friends to figure out what school would be the best avenue. I looked at Excelsior, primarily as a backup, but decided against it.

Universally, they all said they wouldn't touch an Excelsior grad when there were so many students from local reputable schools. 34 states may accept Excelsior... but usually with many more hoops to jump through. Our state makes Excelsior grads take an extra 750 hours of clinical!
 
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rook901

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You seem to put alot of weight into the nursing forum where you seem to be getting all of your statistics from.

The comment regarding the NLNAC and the BON's that accept Excelsior is not from the nursing forum. EC is accredited by the NLNAC. This is not up for discussion. 34 states approve Excelsior without additional requirements. This is also not up for discussion.

Most of those 34 states have added a minimum amount of clinical hours which must be completed before the EC grad will be considered.

See above. This statement is completely false.

Under no circumstances should one ever advocate for a nursing program that has no clinical hours and it is a big shame on the nursing profession to have allowed this program to continue. Nursing needs to move on to the BSN for entry and leave this mess behind them.

Again, I'll defer to the opinion of the NLNAC and 34 state Boards of Nursing. They all disagree with you in regards to the adequacy of EC. As for moving on to BSN for entry level, I agree with this and have stated this multiple times. Although I did take the faster route to RN licensure, I will eventually wrap up my BSN completion program. More education is always a good thing.

You are putting a lot of emphasis on this "no clinical hours" argument while ignoring the fact that all EC grads come in with a healthcare background, and all EC grads do complete a pass-or-fail clinical performance examination in which there is no teaching or coaching involved, and where the student has virtually zero room for error.

Passing a test is not very difficult. It is the nature of the work environment that fails most people who have never worked in a hospital.

Passing a test is not difficult, but passing NCLEX does show some basic level of understanding in regards to the field of nursing. That was my point. I clearly stated that passing it does not make one a good nurse.

You might want to take a look at the number of clinical hours an entry level MSN program has. You will find they may have just as many clinicals as the ADN program at a community college.

My issue was not whether or not the MSN has clinicals. In fact, I specifically stated that I understand that they do have clinicals. My point was echoing your issue with the dangers of healthcare professionals who think that they know more than they actually know. Schools are throwing the title of Master's-prepared nurse on someone with "just as many clinicals as the ADN program at a community college" (your words). An ADN-equivalent nurse with a Master's in Nursing. This can lead to an overinflated opinion of one's abilities.

Am I going to raise up a pitchfork and decry direct-entry Master's programs because of this? No. Those programs are accredited and state-approved, and I trust accreditation committees' and state boards' opinions more than I trust my personal opinion in the matter of nursing education.

Considering you are advocating for one that is only an ADN and offers nothing for clinicals, you don't have much to brag about.

At what point did my posts turn into bragging? :rolleyes:

No one from my program had a problem as we had worked the units in clinicals for several months before day one. I thought you were done with this thread?

You took a full patient load on day one of your new job, with no unit orientation aside from working on the unit in clinical rotations during school? And this is a Magnet facility? Wow. A Magnet facility with no orientation for new hires. That seems like a pretty high-risk practice.

And I did say that I was done with this thread. But, I also said in my first post today... er.. yesterday.. that I was bored and I was back for more punishment. ;)

For someone who claims EC is as good a program as a traditional nursing school, you sure do spend a lot of time defending it (just a thought)...

I'm failing to see why claiming that a nursing program is adequate would preclude me from defending said program. That seems rather bass-ackwards, doesn't it? I think this is nearing the "grasping at straws" tier of debate. If someone were on this forum bashing your school and making grossly misinformed statements with no hard information to back those statements up, I believe that you would probably throw your two cents into the mix.

Do you usually make a habit of calling people liars as it suits your emotions? I bet that endears you to many.

Believe me when I say that the only emotion I have when reading some of these posts is pure amusement.

I spent many years on my prereqs and researching what path to my RN. talked to the NMs I knew personally and many more that were friends of friends to figure out what school would be the best avenue. I looked at Excelsior, primarily as a backup, but decided against it.

Universally, they all said they wouldn't touch an Excelsior grad when there were so many students from local reputable schools.

Universally? 100% of every nurse manager that you supposedly spoke to regarding EC said that they would not hire an EC grad? As with test questions, whenever the word "always" or "never" is thrown into an answer, that's a huge red flag. I just don't buy your story.

Fortunately, this is the internet, and you aren't required to back up your claims with hard information. Perhaps that's where I'm going wrong here. I need less hard facts and more fabrication!

Also, you're implying that EC is disreputable. I will once again defer to the NLNAC and 34 states Boards of Nursing that have determined that EC is a reputable program.

34 states may accept Excelsior... but usually with many more hoops to jump through. Our state makes Excelsior grads take an extra 750 hours of clinical!

Wrong. 16 states have various regulations regarding EC grads, some of which include additional clinical time. The other 34 do not. Your state, Colorado, is included in those 16 states that have additional regulations on EC grads.
 

rook901

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While this article is geared toward politics, I believe it's still an interesting read, and very appropriate for this thread.

How Facts Backfire - The Boston Globe

They already have beliefs, and a set of facts lodged in their minds. The problem is that sometimes the things they think they know are objectively, provably false. And in the presence of the correct information, such people react very, very differently than the merely uninformed. Instead of changing their minds to reflect the correct information, they can entrench themselves even deeper.

“The general idea is that it’s absolutely threatening to admit you’re wrong,” says political scientist Brendan Nyhan, the lead researcher on the Michigan study. The phenomenon — known as “backfire” — is “a natural defense mechanism to avoid that cognitive dissonance.”
 

Akulahawk

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The comment regarding the NLNAC and the BON's that accept Excelsior is not from the nursing forum. EC is accredited by the NLNAC. This is not up for discussion. 34 states approve Excelsior without additional requirements. This is also not up for discussion.



See above. This statement is completely false.



Again, I'll defer to the opinion of the NLNAC and 34 state Boards of Nursing. They all disagree with you in regards to the adequacy of EC. As for moving on to BSN for entry level, I agree with this and have stated this multiple times. Although I did take the faster route to RN licensure, I will eventually wrap up my BSN completion program. More education is always a good thing.

You are putting a lot of emphasis on this "no clinical hours" argument while ignoring the fact that all EC grads come in with a healthcare background, and all EC grads do complete a pass-or-fail clinical performance examination in which there is no teaching or coaching involved, and where the student has virtually zero room for error.



Passing a test is not difficult, but passing NCLEX does show some basic level of understanding in regards to the field of nursing. That was my point. I clearly stated that passing it does not make one a good nurse.



My issue was not whether or not the MSN has clinicals. In fact, I specifically stated that I understand that they do have clinicals. My point was echoing your issue with the dangers of healthcare professionals who think that they know more than they actually know. Schools are throwing the title of Master's-prepared nurse on someone with "just as many clinicals as the ADN program at a community college" (your words). An ADN-equivalent nurse with a Master's in Nursing. This can lead to an overinflated opinion of one's abilities.

Am I going to raise up a pitchfork and decry direct-entry Master's programs because of this? No. Those programs are accredited and state-approved, and I trust accreditation committees' and state boards' opinions more than I trust my personal opinion in the matter of nursing education.



At what point did my posts turn into bragging? :rolleyes:



You took a full patient load on day one of your new job, with no unit orientation aside from working on the unit in clinical rotations during school? And this is a Magnet facility? Wow. A Magnet facility with no orientation for new hires. That seems like a pretty high-risk practice.

And I did say that I was done with this thread. But, I also said in my first post today... er.. yesterday.. that I was bored and I was back for more punishment. ;)



I'm failing to see why claiming that a nursing program is adequate would preclude me from defending said program. That seems rather bass-ackwards, doesn't it? I think this is nearing the "grasping at straws" tier of debate. If someone were on this forum bashing your school and making grossly misinformed statements with no hard information to back those statements up, I believe that you would probably throw your two cents into the mix.



Believe me when I say that the only emotion I have when reading some of these posts is pure amusement.



Universally? 100% of every nurse manager that you supposedly spoke to regarding EC said that they would not hire an EC grad? As with test questions, whenever the word "always" or "never" is thrown into an answer, that's a huge red flag. I just don't buy your story.

Fortunately, this is the internet, and you aren't required to back up your claims with hard information. Perhaps that's where I'm going wrong here. I need less hard facts and more fabrication!

Also, you're implying that EC is disreputable. I will once again defer to the NLNAC and 34 states Boards of Nursing that have determined that EC is a reputable program.



Wrong. 16 states have various regulations regarding EC grads, some of which include additional clinical time. The other 34 do not. Your state, Colorado, is included in those 16 states that have additional regulations on EC grads.
Don't count California in that "34" that "do not" have regulations regarding EC grads. EC isn't accredited in California. I would be quite surprised to find out that an EC grad is readily reciprocally licensed without going through a LOT of work to prove an equivalent education (including clinical time) that CA will accept.
 

rook901

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Don't count California in that "34" that "do not" have regulations regarding EC grads. EC isn't accredited in California. I would be quite surprised to find out that an EC grad is readily reciprocally licensed without going through a LOT of work to prove an equivalent education (including clinical time) that CA will accept.

Per your very special request, California was not included in the list. Feel free to reference the comprehensive list that I linked to on page 3 of this thread.
 

medicRob

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rook901

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Now, did Tony the tiger tell you this when he handed you your nursing degree?

Judging by your juvenile response and the continued lack of hard evidence to support any of your ignorant claims, I'll assume that you have no further counterpoints to present.
 

medicRob

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Judging by your juvenile response and the continued lack of hard evidence to support any of your ignorant claims, I'll assume that you have no further counterpoints to present.

Either that or I do not feel that excelsior RNs are worthy of the title. It has been my experience that the only individuals who defend online courses and shortcuts are those who have taken those shortcuts and went through those online courses that have something to lose if the program is no longer accepted.. You speak of the campus program you attended being a joke, I see it all too often.. you can't find someone to blame for your inability to become competent or to make it through, so you blame the instructor or the program. Let's be real, you probably went to excelsior because you couldn't cut it in real nursing school.

If excelsior is such a great program and prepares its nurses so well, then why are there states that will not accept its graduates? My education stands in all 50 states and so long as I meet the state requirements for reciprocity, my RN is good in every one of them. There is no state I cannot practice in. Do you think these boards of nursing have went so far as to say that they will not accept an excelsior graduate simply because they do not like the word "Online"? These individuals have had a wealth of experience in both clinical nursing and administration.. They have decided that they want no part of these, "Shortcut" nurses and as such, I applaud them for this. Excelsior's nursing program is a joke in the medical community. The students have NOWHERE NEAR ENOUGH CLINICALS OR LAB EXPERIENCE, which accounts for 50% if not more of the learning in a nursing program, so you can defend it all you want, but it is quite evident that excelsior is a joke. NLNAC can accredit the program all they want, but if you can't get a job after graduating the program and there are states that will not accept its graduates, then the NLNAC's opinion doesn't mean jack..
 

Shishkabob

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If excelsior is such a great program and prepares its nurses so well, then why are there states that will not accept its graduates?

Because, and don't take this the wrong way, the people higher up in the BONs are like you: They don't see much merit in online based programs and as such don't consider it 'real' education.



If people are so for evidence based medicine, I want to see a study that shows a provider educated online is worse than a provider educated in a traditional system.



I learn best by someone audibly telling me. Others need to watch. Still others need to do. People learn differently... why is that bad?
 
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Journey

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Because, and don't take this the wrong way, the people higher up in the BONs are like you: They don't see much merit in online based programs and as such don't consider it 'real' education.

If people are so for evidence based medicine, I want to see a study that shows a provider educated online is worse than a provider educated in a traditional system.

I learn best by someone audibly telling me. Others need to watch. Still others need to do. People learn differently... why is that bad?

As I stated in another post, online education itself is not bad and even in the traditional programs there are some theory courses which are online. Those "higher up in the BON" have also helped design and impliment some of the programs into the traditional system. It is also the educated providers who are pushing for EVM and EVN which is now becoming more obvious as more BSNs are in the workforce.


It is usually those who do not have experience in education that will continue to push for minimal stanards and criticize those who have become educated and placed themselves "higher up". Education and advancement are not bad things.

How can you be an advocate for a nursing program that has no lab or clinicals? Is this typical of EMS also? The traditional nursing programs, including the MSN entry and the BSN as well as the ADN, should have at least 1000 hours with most having around 1500 hours of clinicals.
 

clibb

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Because, and don't take this the wrong way, the people higher up in the BONs are like you: They don't see much merit in online based programs and as such don't consider it 'real' education.



If people are so for evidence based medicine, I want to see a study that shows a provider educated online is worse than a provider educated in a traditional system.



I learn best by someone audibly telling me. Others need to watch. Still others need to do. People learn differently... why is that bad?

+1

Another question. Where do nurses from the US rate in the world compared to other countries?
 

medic417

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Either that or I do not feel that excelsior RNs are worthy of the title. It has been my experience that the only individuals who defend online courses and shortcuts are those who have taken those shortcuts and went through those online courses that have something to lose if the program is no longer accepted.. You speak of the campus program you attended being a joke, I see it all too often.. you can't find someone to blame for your inability to become competent or to make it through, so you blame the instructor or the program. Let's be real, you probably went to excelsior because you couldn't cut it in real nursing school.

Wow cheap shot there. Trying to dog me on a topic I have not entered in. Excelsior weeds out more students than traditional programs. The few that actually finish have earned the I guess you could say privilege to be known as your equal. The hospitals here have no problem hiring those with the fortitude to put forth such an individual effort.

As to online programs I have hired many from them because they tend to be very dedicated individuals. I have worked with many. Occasionally you get one that obviously just tests well but is lousy but I have seen it less with online programs than I have with standard programs.

To blindly presume the method you chose is the only correct way to get from point a to point b is frankly a prime example of ignorance.
 

Journey

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+1

Another question. Where do nurses from the US rate in the world compared to other countries?

You are giving a +1 and also advocating for minimal standards along with a health care profession such as nursing which should have significant patient contact experience by way of clinicals. Just eliminate the clinicals?

Again, is this typical of EMS also? The least amount of education with as few or no clinicals? Only the minimal standards to just get a certification or license?

Right now the U.S. has fallen behind other nursing programs with only the ADN as the entry.
 
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