Officer points gun at firefighter responding to a call

[MagicTyler]

http://www.ems1.com/safety/articles/1365208-Video-Cop-draws-gun-on-responding-firefighter/

Don't mean for this to turn into a POV lights/siren argument. Based on the article, its hard to see things from the cop's point of view. Seems like he just didn't want to stop the "pursuit".

 

[TransportJockey]

Actually I can very easily see it from the cops view. Running hot in a POV (which is a dumb idea anyway) to an alpha level call? If the LEO heard an alpha level call he can assume that if it's required to run cold to the station for apparatus, and that there might be someone impersonating a police officer. I say he was in the right. the FF was in the wrong

 

[STXmedic]

Exactly what TJ said.

 

[medic417]

Never thought I would agree with the transport jockey but I do this time. The whacker needs to drop his lawsuit and be thankful he's not in jail.

 

[Medic Tim]

Actually I can very easily see it from the cops view. Running hot in a POV (which is a dumb idea anyway) to an alpha level call? If the LEO heard an alpha level call he can assume that if it's required to run cold to the station for apparatus, and that there might be someone impersonating a police officer. I say he was in the right. the FF was in the wrong

On top of that the pov was a charger with a push bumper and spotlight. I can see how the cop thought this guy might be the person they were looking for. I bet the cop would hve pulled him over regardless seeing as his car looks like a cop car.

 

[patput]

Actually I can very easily see it from the cops view. Running hot in a POV (which is a dumb idea anyway) to an alpha level call? If the LEO heard an alpha level call he can assume that if it's required to run cold to the station for apparatus, and that there might be someone impersonating a police officer. I say he was in the right. the FF was in the wrong

I'm not by any means saying that is something they should have been running L/S in a POV for, but in reading the article I can see how the FF thought he was in the clear.

Dean said he didn't pull over because it is common for multiple vehicles to be responding to the same crisis. "I thought, 'We're heading to the same call.'"

I can understand that point, been there myself, granted in marked apparatus. Watching the video (I did have the sound muted so I could've missed something) the officer just appears to be following the POV. I could see how the FF could just assume that the officer was heading to the call as well.

Brooklyn firefighters are urged to use their own discretion in determining how quickly to respond to information given out on a call, Mortensen said. The refrigerator fire was minor only because firefighters extinguished it before it spread, he said.

Dean responded to the call in a manner consistent with others, said Sarah Grapentine, Brooklyn's EMS training officer. Six of the eight other firefighters who responded that night also used lights and sirens, she said.

If that many others responded to the same call hot I can assume it's more or less the norm to do so there. Granted that doesn't make it right, but if thats what you're exposed to how would you know better.

 

[OfficerEvenEMT]

As both an LEO and an EMT I place blame on both parties. The LEO had reasonable suspicion due to the impersonation issue, but it became very clear that the guy was part of the FD as he acknowledged to dispatch in the audio when they turned into the FD. The volunteer FF was very calm, very polite, and very reserved which I applaud him for. He had every expectation that the LEO was also headed to the same call which is reasonable. What isn't reasonable is the FF using lights and siren while headed to an alpha call. In the future the PD should monitor the FF radio to know when a call is coming in. This is what we call "cooperation".

 

[mycrofft]

This whole thing smells like amateur time to me. Everyone is wrong, at least as the reporter describes it. But the press always gets it wrong.

ANd I for one am hereby declaring the use of the phrase "running hot" a dead giveaway you are a (whispered) WHACKER

 

[TransportJockey]

This whole thing smells like amateur time to me. Everyone is wrong, at least as the reporter describes it. But the press always gets it wrong.

ANd I for one am hereby declaring the use of the phrase "running hot" a dead giveaway you are a (whispered) WHACKER

Lol running hot is a regional term i think. Here it is common use for running code three

 

[TransportJockey]

Never thought I would agree with the transport jockey but I do this time. The whacker needs to drop his lawsuit and be thankful he's not in jail.

Hey you agreed with me before i changed my forum name way back when lol

 

[Rialaigh]

I'm not by any means saying that is something they should have been running L/S in a POV for, but in reading the article I can see how the FF thought he was in the clear.



I can understand that point, been there myself, granted in marked apparatus. Watching the video (I did have the sound muted so I could've missed something) the officer just appears to be following the POV. I could see how the FF could just assume that the officer was heading to the call as well.



If that many others responded to the same call hot I can assume it's more or less the norm to do so there. Granted that doesn't make it right, but if thats what you're exposed to how would you know better.

Not sure how common it is in other areas for LEO's to respond to Alpha level fire department calls...Around here if you thought a cop was going to an "odor" call for the fire department...well..you hit your head

Here it would never happen, we can have half the world burning and we still need to call for traffic support.

 

[lightsandsirens5]

Not sure how common it is in other areas for LEO's to respond to Alpha level fire department calls...Around here if you thought a cop was going to an "odor" call for the fire department...well..you hit your head

Here it would never happen, we can have half the world burning and we still need to call for traffic support.

Oh so true. I've asked for cops before on major, major fires and had dispatch say that SO dispatch wants to know why we want them. Lol!

Also, we use running hot up here also as a substitute for Code 3 or P1.

 

[socalmedic]

Hey you agreed with me before i changed my forum name way back when lol

JT is dead to us, DEAD!

 

[patput]

Not sure how common it is in other areas for LEO's to respond to Alpha level fire department calls...Around here if you thought a cop was going to an "odor" call for the fire department...well..you hit your head

Here it would never happen, we can have half the world burning and we still need to call for traffic support.

Responding for an odor call would be a little out of place, but we end up with law on scene for a good majority of our calls around here. I would say upwards of 75 to 80 percent.

Running hot is used here just like running code is in other areas, pretty common.

 

[TransportJockey]

JT is dead to us, DEAD!

Lol not if you're dislexic

 

[Farmer2DO]

No. The cop was way out of line here.

What in the hell justifies him going 100 mph? He had no evidence of a crime. No one was being assaulted, murdered, or kidnapped. That right there makes him unsafe to be on the streets. He had NO business going that fast.

Second, if the red lights were authorized by his organization, that makes him an emergency vehicle in Wisconsin. The law actually says that if he's responding to an emergency call, the use is appropriate. If the police department has an issue with how the fire department is interpreting the law, that's an issue for administration of the two agencies to deal with; not on the side of the road.

http://statutes.laws.com/wisconsin/347/347.25

Third, this guy had every right to believe they were going to the same emergency. And as the law states, he was an emergency vehicle, responding to an emergency.

Fourth, this hero with a badge knew when he pulled in to THE FIREHOUSE that the guy had legitimate volunteer plates, and that there were other members firing up the equipment. Pulling his gun was purely out of anger that someone disobeyed him. Common sense should say that this is a volunteer going to a call. A cop better have a really, really good reason to pull their gun and aim it at someone. They're supposed to be more level headed than that. This guy is a loose cannon. What if he had shot him? How in the world could he justify that?

The cop escalated this situation needlessly. He endangered lives without good reason. 100 mph chase and pointing his gun at someone's head because he's angry at him? Bet your rear end I'd be suing too, and I'd do everything in my power to see this guy stripped of his badge.

 

[Medic Tim]

No. The cop was way out of line here.

What in the hell justifies him going 100 mph? He had no evidence of a crime. No one was being assaulted, murdered, or kidnapped. That right there makes him unsafe to be on the streets. He had NO business going that fast.

Second, if the red lights were authorized by his organization, that makes him an emergency vehicle in Wisconsin. The law actually says that if he's responding to an emergency call, the use is appropriate. If the police department has an issue with how the fire department is interpreting the law, that's an issue for administration of the two agencies to deal with; not on the side of the road.

http://statutes.laws.com/wisconsin/347/347.25

Third, this guy had every right to believe they were going to the same emergency. And as the law states, he was an emergency vehicle, responding to an emergency.

Fourth, this hero with a badge knew when he pulled in to THE FIREHOUSE that the guy had legitimate volunteer plates, and that there were other members firing up the equipment. Pulling his gun was purely out of anger that someone disobeyed him. Common sense should say that this is a volunteer going to a call. A cop better have a really, really good reason to pull their gun and aim it at someone. They're supposed to be more level headed than that. This guy is a loose cannon. What if he had shot him? How in the world could he justify that?

The cop escalated this situation needlessly. He endangered lives without good reason. 100 mph chase and pointing his gun at someone's head because he's angry at him? Bet your rear end I'd be suing too, and I'd do everything in my power to see this guy stripped of his badge.

You definitely have some valid points among all the Leo hate. I agree the cop could have handled it better/different in several aspects though it should never have come to that (for a variety of reasons) THe guy broke department or whatever policy by even responding code. On top of that exceedingthe posted speed limit by 25-30 mph ( that is dangerous and reckless no matter who you are and what you are driving) Had he responded as he should have it wouldnt have been an issue. If the department doesn't follow the policy it needs to change or be enforced. As I noted in an earlier post I can understand why the officer thought this was the person pretending to be a cop.

 

[usalsfyre]

The FF is stupid. From the questionable car to responding code to an odor call there are multiple levels of stupid here. That said, being stupid is, for the most part, not illegal. Apparently against department policy, but not illegal.

The cop however, is dangerous. If he wants to know how the wrong people end up shot, this is a text book example. I don't know if he let catecholamine dump get the better of him, if he was angry and had an agenda, if he just wasn't thinking clearly or some other excuse for this idiocy. The fact is if he can't assess situations any better than this I seriously question if he needs to be running around with a badge and gun.

The fact is both sides need to let the matter drop and thank their lucky stars. The FF that he's alive to play Ricky Rescue another day and the officer that he's not facing a murder two or manslaughter charge. Of course considering small town politics surrounding the "heros" it's unlikely to happen.

 

[medic417]

Hey you agreed with me before i changed my forum name way back when lol

I don't know what in the paintball you are talking about.

 

[Farmer2DO]

among all the Leo hate.

There's no LEO hate. In fact, I tend to be a pretty conservative guy that almost always agrees with/backs up law enforcement. I thank God every day that I have the police that work with me that I do. I firmly believe that the vast majority of people that have run ins with the police deserve them. And my children will grow up with respect for police, and to know that when they are told to do something by a police officer, they will do it and answer with "Yes sir".

What I have is outrage at a police officer that needlessly escalated a situation. He pulled a gun when there was no need to. He topped 100 mph for no known criminal activity. When he was crossing the center line, while cresting one of those hills, what if he hit a minivan with mom and her 4 kids? No amount of justifying could make it OK.

While I have respect for them, NO ONE deserves to have a gun pointed at their head with no violation of the law. That's how people get killed.

The police force I work with has an administration that is apologetic for their justified actions. They feel the need to cater to the Occupy protesters. Here is the opposite. The administration is backing up a cop that made some REALLY bad decisions. They apparently feel that whatever they decide is right, because they're the police. I don't go for that, at all.

On top of that exceedingthe posted speed limit by 25-30 mph

As an emergency vehicle, authorized by his organization, he broke no law. He was legally justified in speeding.

If the department doesn't follow the policy it needs to change or be enforced.

I can agree with that.

As I noted in an earlier post I can understand why the officer thought this was the person pretending to be a cop.

Up until he confirmed the guy's plate, and followed him into the fire department, and saw the other people there, opening doors and preparing for a response. Then, his hot head brain should have kicked into rational mode and not pulled his damn gun.

The FF is stupid. From the questionable car

So we're going to rip on him for the type of car he has? How does that matter in any way, shape or form?

to responding code to an odor call

Which is apparently the standard procedure for the majority of the department. Doesn't make him the problem.

Apparently against department policy

The department actually states "Brooklyn firefighters are urged to use their own discretion in determining how quickly to respond to information given out on a call". It sounds like the police department is claiming one policy (which there is no evidence shown of) while the department is following a different policy.

The cop however, is dangerous. If he wants to know how the wrong people end up shot, this is a text book example. I don't know if he let catecholamine dump get the better of him, if he was angry and had an agenda, if he just wasn't thinking clearly or some other excuse for this idiocy. The fact is if he can't assess situations any better than this I seriously question if he needs to be running around with a badge and gun.

I agree completely.

The fact is both sides need to let the matter drop

I have to disagree with you here. The fourth amendment of the Constitution guarantees us the right to be secure in our person against unreasonable search and seizure. I don't call having a gun pointed at your head secure in your person, when no crime has been committed. The police officer is the one who's supposed to be level headed, and dealing with stressful situations, and his department and town are brushing the complaint aside. I think the fire fighter has every right to follow through on this, with a lawsuit, if need be.