Nurses vs EMT/Paramedics in EMS

[8jimi8]

I think its interesting a nurse can challenge the Paramedic cert but a Paramedic with several years experience and degree can not challenge the RN to work in the ED. The nursing board wont allow that, we have to take a 1 year bridge course.
Does the nurse challenging the exam need to take any training in ambulance operations, hazmat, pre-hospital extraction and packaging, cricoidotomy, intubation, chest decompression, crime scene awareness/ scene safety, and many many other things nurses do not do?

from my online perusal, most states that allow an RN to challenge, also require the RN to complete a paramedic refresher course to learn all of the "skills and procedures" that you mentioned. The one year brdige course is supposed to catch a paramedic up on the education they are missing. Can you see the difference between having a generalized education and then learning new skills vs having a specialized education and skills and trying to apply that specialty to a generalized field? Emts aren't trained to take care of 7 people at once, for 12 to 16 hours at a time. That make sense?

 

[mycrofft]

That's because nursing is a profession different from Paramedicking.

I must be typing with invisible ink or something, but nursing is not a linear or related type of practice versus paramedics (who are officialy "EMT-Paramedics"). Whole lot of ethics, history, orientation to role, dietetics, microbiology, chemstries, other basic college courses (unless you are a product of the nurse mills getting underwriting from hospitals) .... different.

An EMT-Paramedic works within standardized protocols as extensons of physicians. Nurses work with nursing diagnoses, and can use medical diagnoses within and in accordance to standardized procedures, but as members of a profession, not as extensions. A nurse may learn and be certified in a number of techniques and remain in her/his profession. A technician must learn a whole profession to be a nurse.

 

[RCashRN]

from my online perusal, most states that allow an RN to challenge, also require the RN to complete a paramedic refresher course to learn all of the "skills and procedures" that you mentioned. The one year brdige course is supposed to catch a paramedic up on the education they are missing. Can you see the difference between having a generalized education and then learning new skills vs having a specialized education and skills and trying to apply that specialty to a generalized field? Emts aren't trained to take care of 7 people at once, for 12 to 16 hours at a time. That make sense?

yes. i had to take a refresher course that includes all those skills. given, my instructor catered to the ones in the class who were already NREMT-P's and i kinda got skipped over... so i had som coworkers/friends/local P's go back through skills with me countless times. you have to submit a resume to state DHEC with your work history too, you must have at least 3-5 years of ICU or ER experience, along with ACLS and some other stuff before they approve you to take the refresher course.

 

[VentMedic]

I think its interesting a nurse can challenge the Paramedic cert but a Paramedic with several years experience and degree can not challenge the RN to work in the ED. The nursing board wont allow that, we have to take a 1 year bridge course.

If the LVN with 2x more education and clinical experience than the 700 - 1000 hour Paramedic (or less in some states) and patient care experience in the hospital, can not challenge it, why should a Paramedic whose curriculum is very focused on just emergency care be allowed? That is just one module for RNs. The RN already knows IVs and has experience with many, many more meds than the 30 that are generally in a Paramedic's box. The Paramedic at this time is also still considered a "certificate" of training in most states which makes it even easier to be challenged.

There is nothing in the Paramedic curriculum that prepares them for total patient care or sets a foundation without even as much as college level A&P, pathophysiology or microbiology. The few hundred hours of emergency training a Paramedic gets is only one focus module that RNs can take. Look at the threads on this forum and you should be able to figure out that some here would be overwhelmed by the expectations in a hospital where there are concerns for the safety of the patient and other health care providers.

I also find this whole argument ridiculous since just about anyone, regardless of interest in medicine or motive to be a Paramedic, can generally pass the EMT and Paramedic with no problem just to get hired by a FD or have bragging rights to a patch but never work as a Paramedic. I don't see many people going through nursing school for the same reasons and that patient care thing is emphasized from day 1 of their program. Some Paramedics that have tried to take the bridge to nursing have failed because their only motives were getting the credential and money. The Excelsior program was an easy alternative since it required less then two weeks of patient contact in the program. Now that more states want proof of several hundred hours of patient contact as a nursing student, it is not as popular.

Does the nurse challenging the exam need to take any training in ambulance operations, hazmat, pre-hospital extraction and packaging, cricoidotomy, intubation, chest decompression, crime scene awareness/ scene safety, and many many other things nurses do not do?

You have just mentioned "skills" which Paramedics pick up with very little educational foundation. In most states nurses can do "skills" such as intubation, central line placement, chest decompression and cricoidotomy it that is what their job title calls for and generally their scope of practice can be expanded. The numbers in the studies for some Paramedics also show that intubation, IVs, medications and medical emergencies are the weak areas. For RNs these may be their strongest areas. Some Paramedic students may never get the opportunity to see or do any of these "skills" on a live patient as some schools accept intubation done on a manikin. RNs may assist in hundreds of intubation which can include doing RSI meds as well as all the maintenance and "rescue" medications for many hours afterwards for stabilization. RNs may also get the opportunity of seeing many bedside tracheotomies performed to which they will assist in with a physician that might love to teach and discuss the entire procedure each time in great detail. And how many central lines do you think they will assist in and care for? How many PICCs will some of these RNs insert? At least when they are ready to be trained for actually doing the skills, they have some idea what it is and the mistakes that can be made. We have no problem teaching RNs to do the actual intubation once they join the Flight or Specialty teams. The Paramedic also seldom gets to see a broad range of patients especially with the few hours of clinicals and some areas just want the "40 ALS patient" contact. Some areas still allow those to be done on an ALS engine with no transport capability.

As far as crime scene, besides a little paragraph in the textbook, the other training you had was a Police Officer telling you to stay out of certain areas. Due to the increased violence in the hospital and dealing with violent patients, maybe several at one time, for 8 or 12 hours every day they work, RNs do have some knowledge about safety and crime scenes. Some EMT(P)s fail to realize it is the RN that cares for those patients you can't wait to dump off your truck after just a few minutes of transport and that you have done everything in your power to upset the patient even more. That might even include slamming Narcan just to see their patient react and to watch the nurses take a beating while trying to restrain the patient physically and chemically after starting another IV which the Paramedic had watched the patient pull out after the Narcan for even more amusement.

If the RN has an interest in emergency medicine, they generally will take the correct path of experience and education to achieve their goal especially if it is Flight or CCT. An RN working in a hospital learns quickly about not taking on an assignment they are not qualified for. Paramedics generally will accept patients (ALS and CCT) they are not qualified for either because they have no clue what they do not know or out of cockiness.

 

[VentMedic]

We are talking about one of the Dutch-Antillian islands, were we do believe that the Dutch nurse-based system for pre-hospital care is among the best in the world, to be preffered above the American paramedic-model. However I don't think we can afford the Dutch system.
And untill we can afford it, we have nurses on the bus, without any specific ambulance-training.
Maybe it's about time that we start thinking about alternative (and indeed cheaper) options to upgrade this system to ILS- and ALS-level.

As far the topic of this thread, this country would greatly reduce quality of patient care and reduce their chances of expanding their scope to perform certain care at the patient's home rather than transporting if they went with some watered down system like that in the U.S. If they went with a system like that which exists in other countries, they might find the costs being very similar to what they are now. Having a health care system with well educated and qualified people is not cheap. Even in the U.S., which only emphasizes minimal standards that are ridiculously low, the systems are very costly.

 

[JPINFV]

You have just mentioned "skills" which Paramedics pick up with very little educational foundation. In most states nurses can do "skills" such as intubation, central line placement, chest decompression and cricoidotomy it that is what their job title calls for and generally their scope of practice can be expanded. The numbers in the studies for some Paramedics also show that intubation, IVs, medications and medical emergencies are the weak areas. For RNs these may be their strongest areas.

Some Paramedic students may never get the opportunity to see or do any of these "skills" on a live patient as some schools accept intubation done on a manikin. RNs may assist in hundreds of intubation which can include doing RSI meds as well as all the maintenance and "rescue" medications for many hours afterwards for stabilization. RNs may also get the opportunity of seeing many bedside tracheotomies performed to which they will assist in with a physician that might love to teach and discuss the entire procedure each time in great detail. And how many central lines do you think they will assist in and care for? How many PICCs will some of these RNs insert? At least when they are ready to be trained for actually doing the skills, they have some idea what it is and the mistakes that can be made. We have no problem teaching RNs to do the actual intubation once they join the Flight or Specialty teams. The Paramedic also seldom gets to see a broad range of patients especially with the few hours of clinicals and some areas just want the "40 ALS patient" contact. Some areas still allow those to be done on an ALS engine with no transport capability.

Seriously, how often are most RNs intubating patients? CRNAs and prehospital nurses? Sure. However, how often is the average med/surge, scrub nurse, SNF nurse, or heck, even emergency nurses intubating? Similarly, how often are these same nurses doing crics, decompressions, or central lines? By "doing" I mean actually performing the procedure. Not assisting. Not observing. As in the physician isn't even in the room and the RN goes, "Let's intubate!" The vast amount of RNs (which, for the record, challenging isn't limited to just "Code team or rapid response team nurses," but in many cases RNs as a whole) are not intubating, nor performing any of those other procedures, on even an irregular basis. You say this may be an individual nurse's strongest area, but then intubation similarly may be an individual paramedic's strongest area.

Similarly, assisting in a procedure is not the same as performing a procedure. A scrub tech doesn't get to be the primary surgeon after assisting with hundreds of operations. An EMT-B doesn't get to manually defibrillate on his own despite assisting with manual defibrillations potentially hundreds of times. That's because doing, assisting, and observing are three different things. Sure, you can learn a lot by assisting and observing, but the mere act of doing either or both does not mean that an individual is competent to perform an intervention on their own.

 

[Veneficus]

Similarly, assisting in a procedure is not the same as performing a procedure. A scrub tech doesn't get to be the primary surgeon after assisting with hundreds of operations. An EMT-B doesn't get to manually defibrillate on his own despite assisting with manual defibrillations potentially hundreds of times. That's because doing, assisting, and observing are three different things. Sure, you can learn a lot by assisting and observing, but the mere act of doing either or both does not mean that an individual is competent to perform an intervention on their own.

But if they stayed at a Holiday Inn the night before...




just kidding

 

[VentMedic]

Seriously, how often are most RNs intubating patients? CRNAs and prehospital nurses? Sure. However, how often is the average med/surge, scrub nurse, SNF nurse, or heck, even emergency nurses intubating? Similarly, how often are these same nurses doing crics, decompressions, or central lines? By "doing" I mean actually performing the procedure. Not assisting. Not observing. As in the physician isn't even in the room and the RN goes, "Let's intubate!" The vast amount of RNs (which, for the record, challenging isn't limited to just "Code team or rapid response team nurses," but in many cases RNs as a whole) are not intubating, nor performing any of those other procedures, on even an irregular basis. You say this may be an individual nurse's strongest area, but then intubation similarly may be an individual paramedic's strongest area.

Similarly, assisting in a procedure is not the same as performing a procedure. A scrub tech doesn't get to be the primary surgeon after assisting with hundreds of operations. An EMT-B doesn't get to manually defibrillate on his own despite assisting with manual defibrillations potentially hundreds of times. That's because doing, assisting, and observing are three different things. Sure, you can learn a lot by assisting and observing, but the mere act of doing either or both does not mean that an individual is competent to perform an intervention on their own.

JP, you still have a lot to learn about nurses and hospital situations as well as all the other medical professions. You should not judge everyone by just the one nursing home nurse you know. Are you really so naive at this point that you believe a critical care RN and those that have chosen to work in a SNF are the same? Both can be quality professionals with their own areas of expertise and skill sets but I doubt the SNF RN wants to do RSI and intubate. They at least realize their limitiations.

You have not worked in critical care units or on specialty teams. You have not worked in Pedi ICUs or L&D. You have never been on a hospital code or rapid response team. You have never been on a Flight team. You can not speak for what ALL RNs can or can not do. Nursing is a vast field. EMS is very, very limited. You also seem to think all EMTs and Paramedics are the same because they had the same training. But, even if they are that training is very limited to just one small area of medicine. The majority of patients in a hospital are also not necessarily transported by ambulance but some EMT(P)s believe that is the only way to get there. You make a lot of generalizations without realizing how large the field of medicine actually is and the opportunities in it.

In some of the hospitals I have been in, the Rapid Response and Code teams can definitely function without a doctor present. If it is determined the patient needs intubating the RN gives the medication and I, the RRT, intubates. If it is a Flight or Specialty RN, they can do the intubation. If it is in L&D, the RN can intubate. If a baby has a pneumo when they are on some serious ventilation in the ICU, the closest person who is trained to do a needle decompression can perform it in an emergency. That could be the RRT or the RN who has had this training.

If a Paramedic is only doing one or two intubations per year while the Flight, Specialty or CCT RN is required to do at least 10 per year, who do you think might be a little better. The fact that RNs know they must have certain experience and continue to practice to stay current sets them apart.

Even having seen advanced procedures being done is better than never having seen them performed except on a manikin.

Also, I personally don't like that fact that some some EMT(P)s who have no interest in patient care are actually placed into a situation to where they might have to touch patients either.

JP, with the education you have now, you should be starting to think beyond the "EMT-B" level to at least start to process advanced concepts in medicine better and to recognize some of the other specialty areas in medicine.

Also for the sake of this topic, there are a few states here in the U.S. that allows RNs to function in prehospital EMS within their own scope as RNs and perform whatever skills their medical director determines. They may not need another "cert" such as PHRN or MICN.

 

[VentMedic]

But if they stayed at a Holiday Inn the night before...




just kidding

I hope you are kidding. If you have traveled to as many countries as you claim, you should already know how RNs can function in prehospital. The Dutch system is a good example. However, you may have no experience here in the U.S. with the RN that works Flight or Specialty or in the many different critical care situations.

 

[JPINFV]

Vent... I was going to actually try a response, but I'm tired of playing your games. You make broad sweeping claims, such as 'nurses do this, that, or the other thing, therefore it's only right and proper that they can challenge paramedic licensure.' However, when challenged on that, you back track to claiming that only a few nurses who are in the minority (response teams and flight nurses) are somehow representative of all nurses while lashing out with personal attacks. If you meant only response team and flight nurses, why continue with using the general term of "nurse" when clearly you don't mean all nurses? Since I have zero clue on what part of your posts you're going to sit and 'clarify,' it isn't worth my time to respond to your diatribes.

 

[Shishkabob]

You have not worked in critical care units or on specialty teams. You have not worked in Pedi ICUs or L&D. You have never been on a hospital code or rapid response team. You have never been on a Flight team. You can not speak for what ALL RNs can or can not do.

In some of the hospitals I have been in, the Rapid Response and Code teams can definitely function without a doctor present. If it is determined the patient needs intubating the RN gives the medication and I, the RRT, intubates. If it is a Flight or Specialty RN, they can do the intubation. If it is in L&D, the RN can intubate.

You're speaking of specialty units and not the average RN. The average RN, in my experience in Texas, cannot intubate, and are not taught how to intubate. They have to take extra education to do it.

 

[dudemanguy]

As someone who is neither a paramedic or an RN, but has worked with both and has family that are both. I dont think theres any comparison between a paramedics level of training and a nurses. Nursing requires much greater depth of knowledge and training, there is no comparison. I think the education gap between a paramedic and an RN is probably the same as an EMT basic and a paramedic.
I'm not saying RNs are trained to do EVERYTHING a paramedic is, but the few skills they arent trained would be relatively easy for them to learn.

I also find it amusing that the medical students in here already seem to have a poor view of nurses. When they are interns they will likely quickly learn that its the nurses that are gonna repeatedly save their butt.

 

[Shishkabob]

You are admittedly not in the medical field but somehow know that nurses will save a Doctors butt? Or that nurses are vastly superior to Paramedics in knowledge? How is it that a nurse, with less education than a doctor, can be viewed in such a high regard by you, but when you say a medic has less then a nurse, that the medic is inferior? Double standard much?

Now, I'm not an RN myself, but I know many Medic/RNs and they have said the same thing: Nurses don't compare to medics when it comes to cardiology and trauma. That is the paramedic specialty. Of course that's not the sum of what we do. 8jimi8 here, who is an RN himself, even said he wants to be a medic because it'd be more education in the realm of airway and cardiology.

Yes, education is lacking in EMS, no one denies that. But to say one is better than the other, when there are vastly different systems that require different amounts of education for BOTH levels, is laughable. I've met idiot nurses, and I've met idiot medics. They exist both places, and to make a generalization like you just did is confusing.

 

[VentMedic]

You're speaking of specialty units and not the average RN. The average RN, in my experience in Texas, cannot intubate, and are not taught how to intubate. They have to take extra education to do it.

Emergency medicine is a SPECIALTY. Do you not consider the Paramedic to be a specialist in emergency medicine? The difference here is that the RN has obtained a general education foundation in the sciences and some experience in different patient care areas where as the Paramedic only gets the specialty part without the education or experience. And, please do not be led into believing that working as an EMT-B for 5 years is the "experience" that is required.

The average Paramedic in TX only has 600 hours of training with no A&P. They know very little about most of the medications that is used in the hospital or even just in the ED. They do not have college level Pharmacology which would make even learning those meds a challenge.

Just because the RN doesn't learn intubation in nursing school does not mean they can not learn it later. Don't the flight and specialty RNs in TX intubate? There is just some much one can learn in a 2 - 4 year program. They also don't learn enough to work in a critical unit but will receive many months of additional education and training later. This, of course I'm sure some Paramedics find funny since they learn all they need to know in a few extra hours to be called "CCEMT-P". Or, they can just buy a book to study the test question for FP-C or CCP and just take a test. We all know they are then "critical care certified".

Do you know how difficult it is to teach some Paramedics who have never had any college level A&P a few simple concepts about medication and "advanced" procedures? That is why we still get the "lido numbs the heart" and "CPAP pushes lung water". Have you ever tried to talk about hemodynamics or acid-base beyond the few paragraphs in the Paramedic text with an ICU RN or RRT? I think you might be amazed at how little you know. The acid-base taught in the Paramedic text is about at the 8th grade level.

Now, I'm not an RN myself, but I know many Medic/RNs and they have said the same thing: Nurses don't compare to medics when it comes to cardiology and trauma.

Nurses aren't constantly trying to compare themselves to Paramedics. They are still very secure with themselves if they can't intubate since they don't base their who professional status on a couple of skills. The Paramedics on the other hand believe that since they can do a few meds on basically a dead person in a code and intubate, they must be just like doctors or at least way better than any other health care professional.

 

[Shishkabob]

Let's be fair here, Vent. In general, a new grad RN cannot intubate, and a new grad medic can, correct? (Atleast in my area)


Glad you called Paramedicne a specialty... so then why are you for RNs being able to challenge it instead of going through the proper channels like they have to for their specialties?


Yes, I will agree, we (new grads) don't know much about most of the medications used in the hospital. On the flip side, does a new grad RN have much, if any, understanding of what's done in the field themselves? I had a new grad RN go in to a 5 minutes explanation of what Benzos were, failing to realize that the Benzo she was giving was common place on an ambulance.


(PS, Texas is 624 hours minimum )
(PPS My school did more than 624)

 

[MrBrown]

The average Paramedic in TX only has 600 hours of training with no A&P. They know very little about most of the medications that is used in the hospital or even just in the ED. They do not have college level Pharmacology which would make even learning those meds a challenge.

Nah that's just 12 week wonders who work at the Houston Fire Department

Just because the RN doesn't learn intubation in nursing school does not mean they can not learn it later.

I agree wholeheartedly the hardest thing to learn if you have a good knowledgebase is the physical skill itself; for me the hardest part of cannulating somebody is the skill of sticking in the IV cathether, everybody else is 100 yards behind going "what does interstitial mean?"

Do you know how difficult it is to teach some Paramedics who have never had any college level A&P a few simple concepts about medication and "advanced" procedures?

While my experience in doing so is limited, the few people I have tried to educate have been so hard to teach because they just don't understand the fundementals of what you are saying.

I am shocked how horrendously easy it is to get certified in the US, I know one or two people who have taken the standard required number of hours and know so little it is frightening.

I know people who can cannulate and use one or two cardiac meds and they struggle with basic concepts of body fluid compartmentilisation and are totally incapable of reading an ECG beyond having been taught what one or two rhythms LOOK like, not how to interpret them but what they LOOK like.

One example that stands to mind is trying to teach somebody about hyperglycaemia and HONK; it was almost impossible as the person in this particular case had virtually no knowledge of osmolarity or how glucose is regulated. This is somebody who was able to cannulate and infuse yet they could barely understand osmotic shift.

 

[VentMedic]

Vent... I was going to actually try a response, but I'm tired of playing your games. You make broad sweeping claims, such as 'nurses do this, that, or the other thing, therefore it's only right and proper that they can challenge paramedic licensure.' However, when challenged on that, you back track to claiming that only a few nurses who are in the minority (response teams and flight nurses) are somehow representative of all nurses while lashing out with personal attacks. If you meant only response team and flight nurses, why continue with using the general term of "nurse" when clearly you don't mean all nurses? Since I have zero clue on what part of your posts you're going to sit and 'clarify,' it isn't worth my time to respond to your diatribes.

I never many any claim that all RNs are the same. I clearly put Flight, Specialty and critical care into my posts.

Now, if you want to discuss generalizations, let's look at the profession you have chosen which is the Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine or DO. You can spend the rest of the day trying to say it is just the same as MD but anybody will tell you differently...especially the MDs. We are told by the MD attendings to watch the DO residents more closely so they don't muck up the patients. In fact, if given the choice we will push the MD resident to the head of the line for "skills" such as intubation, central line placement and "running" the code before we will allow the DO resident to get near the patient. In the Pedi/Neo ICUs, the DO residents hang in the back watching the MD residents. We have heard about how inferior the DO is for years and it will take alot to change the attitudes that exist. This is no different than the EMT, like yourself at this point, who has only heard the worst about the RN mostly on these EMS forums. You have now stereotyped all RNs to be like the few you have seen.

You as a DO student will have a very tough road with your poor attitude towards nursing, who could be your best friends during your residency.

It might also surprise you to know that EMS providers just make up a small portion of all health care workers. It might even surprise you more to know that out of all the EMTs, like yourself, not many get the opportunity to work the "cool" calls or do 911 EMS.

As far as the "challenge the Paramedic licensure" thing, my initial response was to schultz who can't figure out why Paramedics, some with just 600 hours of training and no college level courses, and very limited or focused training can not challenge the RN. Imagine if all the FFs or 3 month wonder Paramedics could challenge the RN just for the money and no interest in patient care? Imagine if ALL RNs wanted to work on the ambulances? That might actually be a good thing and EMS in the U.S. could be raised to the level that exists in other countries where RNs are more active in prehospital.

 

[Shishkabob]

Nah that's just 12 week wonders who work at the Houston Fire Department

I'm still waiting for my questioned I asked you a few weeks ago: What is with your recent obsessions with TEEX?

I agree wholeheartedly the hardest thing to learn if you have a good knowledgebase is the physical skill itself;

In all honesty, what's left to learn after you know the didactic portion?

While my experience in doing so is limited, the few people I have tried to educate have been so hard to teach because they just don't understand the fundementals of what you are saying.

Yeah because the minority is obviously representative of the majority.

You have now stereotyped all _______s to be like the few you have seen.

Ironic for this forum.

 

[JPINFV]

I never many any claim that all RNs are the same. I clearly put Flight, Specialty and critical care into my posts.

You clearly put flight, specialty, and critical care in the post I quoted at the very end after mentioning all of the procedures that RNs are supposedly competent on solely because they observe or assist with the procedure constantly.

Now, if you want to discuss generalizations, let's look at the profession you have chosen which is the Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine or DO. You can spend the rest of the day trying to say it is just the same as MD but anybody will tell you differently...especially the MDs. We are told by the MD attendings to watch the DO residents more closely so they don't muck up the patients. In fact, if given the choice we will push the MD resident to the head of the line for "skills" such as intubation, central line placement and "running" the code before we will allow the DO resident to get near the patient. In the Pedi/Neo ICUs, the DO residents hang in the back watching the MD residents. We have heard about how inferior the DO is for years and it will take alot to change the attitudes that exist. This is no different than the EMT, like yourself at this point, who has only heard the worst about the RN mostly on these EMS forums. You have now stereotyped all RNs to be like the few you have seen.

Yet, amazingly enough, there are DOs teaching and treating patients all over the place. Yet, amazingly enough, DOs are licensed by the same medical board as MDs in the majority of states. Yet, amazingly enough, I can't think of a single state that limits the scope of practice of DOs to anything other than an unrestricted licensed to practice medicine.

However, where exactly am I slamming RNs? Where have I stereotyped RNs? I can make a lot of the same claims about RNs about physicians (regardless of MD or DO). I don't want a dermatologist intubating me. I don't want a radiologist running a code. I don't want a PM&R specialist on an ambulance. It's as much a mischaracterization of physicians to say that all physicians are competent to do _____ solely because they are a physician as it is to say that about nurses of any levels or EMS providers of any levels.

You as a DO student will have a very tough road with your poor attitude towards nursing, who could be your best friends during your residency.

Where have I shown that I have a poor attitude towards nurses? Because I don't believe that a nurse is equal to a physician? Because I believe that not all nurses know how to do all procedures? Because I believe that there are actual limits to what a nurse can and can not competently do?

It might also surprise you to know that EMS providers just make up a small portion of all health care workers. It might even surprise you more to know that out of all the EMTs, like yourself, not many get the opportunity to work the "cool" calls or do 911 EMS.

Oh, really? You mean that every 3rd health care provider isn't an EMS provider? Like, OMG, I can't totally believe that!!!111oneonetwoshift1!:unsure:

What? You mean that not all EMS providers run 911? I so can't totally not believe that considering that neither of the two companies that I've worked for had 911 contracts.


What ever... Once again you've shown that when someone says something you don't like you have to engage in personal attacks. Welcome to the ignore list.

 

[VentMedic]

Yet, amazingly enough, there are DOs teaching and treating patients all over the place. Yet, amazingly enough, DOs are licensed by the same medical board as MDs in the majority of states. Yet, amazingly enough, I can't think of a single state that limits the scope of practice of DOs to anything other than an unrestricted licensed to practice medicine.

And here you are making generalizations. While a state may not limit a scope of practice, that does not mean the DO will be welcome in the ICUs or other specialties. It doesn't mean they will even get the same opportunities in their residency as I have already mentioned. It also doesn't mean patients have to choose a DO over MD as their PCP.

Oh, really? You mean that every 3rd health care provider isn't an EMS provider? Like, OMG, I can't totally believe that!!!111oneonetwoshift1!:unsure:

What? You mean that not all EMS providers run 911? I so can't totally not believe that considering that neither of the two companies that I've worked for had 911 contracts.


What ever... Once again you've shown that when someone says something you don't like you have to engage in personal attacks. Welcome to the ignore list.

That's right JP, not every EMT works on a 911 truck. Your company may have had 911 contracts to run with an ALS truck from the FD but that also doesn't mean the truck you were on did.

And where is the personal attack by telling you that not all EMT-Bs are the same and work in the same capacity with every company?

And don't you have this in your signature?
"EMS = Excusing Minimal Standards"