gotbeerz001
Forum Deputy Chief
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The medic is wrong. Period.
Medic dumps patient off gurney on purpose
- Thread starter waaaemt
- Start date
Angel
Paramedic
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Meh
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If he pulls a gun or tries to harm me from the cot I'm just going to leave. Not get closer and tip the cot over.
But yea. "The cot wasn't high."
And that matters how?
But yea. "The cot wasn't high."
And that matters how?
SeeNoMore
Old and Crappy
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It matters because some EMTs feel that a few months/years of rudimentary education and driving the truck really fast entitles them to act like judge and jury. So in their minds the patient was "acting like an *******" and "the cot wasn't even that high" so they would be justified in acting in any manner they chose. We all know people like this with stupid war stories about how they have treated patients and other caregivers awfully. We are supposed to be professionals. That should mean something.
joshrunkle35
EMT-P/RN
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Maybe, maybe not. Tipping over the cot of a person who suddenly has a gun and intends to use it on you might disrupt their OODA loop and buy you time to escape, rather than them just shooting you in the back as you run away.
My point being: I agree with both of you. The idea is to get away from dangerous people. We're not the cops. Most EMS in most states are not armed or trained to deal with an armed person. The safest action is to leave. However, occasionally, the correct action to take in order to escape as quickly and safely as possible can sometimes be distracting someone as you safely run away, or momentarily engaging them in order to buy you or your partner the ability to get away safely.
Essentially: Harm no patient unless failing to do so would present a risk to your own life. I agree with both of you.
joshrunkle35
EMT-P/RN
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I totally agree...sorry to sound like a broken record (from other threads), but seriously, the thing that will help take EMS personnel into the area of actually being "professionals", is a standard of education that requires a college degree.
It's not true 100% of the time, but my subjective experience in EMS has been that typically the people that seem to have very strong ethics and personal codes within EMS have some sort of degree, or an extreme amount of significantly unusual training/experience (FP-C for 20 years, etc). Or, people who watch another person on their department get "railroaded" for something they thought was no big deal...so they slowly change their tune and seek out new training and new standards as a result.
The ones who are super casual about their patient contacts typically seem to have less training/learning/schooling.
I think it comes about from some sort of Dunning-Kruger effect, but obviously (thank God!) I am not a psychologist.
Obviously this is not always true, just my own personal, subjective experience, and my own cognitive biases.
Well...thanks, I did ask
I'm just trying to wrap my head around dump-the-patient-off-the-stretcher as a defensive maneuver.Uclabruin103
Forum Lieutenant
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You all are so easy to get a rise out of. His actions were totally inexcusable.
SeeNoMore
Old and Crappy
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You're incredibly funny. Thanks
Angel
Paramedic
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Um fire is seen as professional. This guy works / worked for a fire dept. So what does any of this have to EMS and professionalism?
SeeNoMore
Old and Crappy
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I am not quite sure what you are asking. Surely you see the connection between this incident and professionalism in EMS.
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A firefighter operating an ambulance dumps a patient to floor and that doesn't make EMS look bad how?
Fire is not magical.
SeeNoMore
Old and Crappy
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Angel, you seem ambivelent about the criticism this Paramedic has recieved. Why is that? I am honestly curious, no sarcasm or offense implied.
FiremanMike
Just a dude
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Has anyone stopped for a minute and consider that this medic is at the end of his rope, burnt out, and possibly working in a malignant department with no support system?
Anyone who's worked in an urban environment can understand how a situation like this can brew over the course of several years of dealing with difficult patients. Dumping the patient was wrong, but I'm not immediately in the camp of "screw this guy, fire him, charge him, flog him, etc". I'd at least like to get to the cause and see if this guy is salvageable.
Now, does being an urban medic make you superman? No, of course not. I know morons, *******s, and just generally terrible medics who remain terrible despite taking 20 calls per day. I've also met truly brilliant providers who are so burnt out from abuse that they could find them self in this guys shoes, should their "give a damn" ever finally break.
Anyone who's worked in an urban environment can understand how a situation like this can brew over the course of several years of dealing with difficult patients. Dumping the patient was wrong, but I'm not immediately in the camp of "screw this guy, fire him, charge him, flog him, etc". I'd at least like to get to the cause and see if this guy is salvageable.
Now, does being an urban medic make you superman? No, of course not. I know morons, *******s, and just generally terrible medics who remain terrible despite taking 20 calls per day. I've also met truly brilliant providers who are so burnt out from abuse that they could find them self in this guys shoes, should their "give a damn" ever finally break.
BOS 101
Forum Crew Member
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Normally I like to give the benefit of the doubt and all that but no I really can't find a reason to excuse it here.
I do think he should be fired and all that because when you go into ems you are there to help, not hurt. And you get an idea of how difficult patients can be before you ever get there so theres no surprise of anything. Burnt or not theres no excuse, I mean pushing the gurney over is a really obvious line, hard action to make accidentally without intent you know? I know some patients deserve it, but that doesnt mean I get to do it to them. How can you be a medical professional and be responsible for people when you're willing to toss them on the ground? It's just not right.
I would not imagine he is salveable, and regardless of if he is normally a good guy or whatever, no one would ever or should ever trust him with patient care again. It's his reality now, due to his actions.
I also agree with the whole gun thing above, thats your only excuse, self defense in a dire scenario.
I do think he should be fired and all that because when you go into ems you are there to help, not hurt. And you get an idea of how difficult patients can be before you ever get there so theres no surprise of anything. Burnt or not theres no excuse, I mean pushing the gurney over is a really obvious line, hard action to make accidentally without intent you know? I know some patients deserve it, but that doesnt mean I get to do it to them. How can you be a medical professional and be responsible for people when you're willing to toss them on the ground? It's just not right.
I would not imagine he is salveable, and regardless of if he is normally a good guy or whatever, no one would ever or should ever trust him with patient care again. It's his reality now, due to his actions.
I also agree with the whole gun thing above, thats your only excuse, self defense in a dire scenario.
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Being burned out and working for a crappy employer is not a good place to be.
Still doesn't justify assaulting the patient. At the end of the day you are accountable for your own actions no matter how terrible your environment is.
Still doesn't justify assaulting the patient. At the end of the day you are accountable for your own actions no matter how terrible your environment is.
BOS 101
Forum Crew Member
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Yup, cant really shake the blame for pushing someone on the ground
It is battery after all, and being a medic doesnt allow you to do that
FiremanMike
Just a dude
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Please re-read my post. I'm not saying he's justified, just offering an explanation.
And what if this is his first screw up? "Never trust him again" seems a bit far based on a short video clip on the Internet with 0 context..
And what if this is his first screw up? "Never trust him again" seems a bit far based on a short video clip on the Internet with 0 context..
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I think your explanation is perfect viable and close to the truth.
But at a certain point does it matter? Individual accountability before all else.
SeeNoMore
Old and Crappy
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It could be that he snapped from the stress of the job. If so I am sorry. That is rough. It also could be that he honestly felt that the patient deserved what he go for daring to question him. I think a holier than though attitude is too common in EMS. Either way, if you tip a patient off of a stretcher you are done.