Master EMT before going Medic?

STXmedic said:
I just had nearly six years if confidence completely stolen by a single forum post...

I wouldn't say I'm overconfident, but I am confident that I'm a capable provider. Apparently there's an ability you develop when you get old that allows you to be able to judge a person's abilities without knowing a thing about them. Luckily I'm not there yet.

I agree that experience makes someone better (assuming its good experience, and not doing the same thing incorrectly over and over again). I am a much better medic than I was when I first started. That doesn't mean I was incompetent and incapable when I first graduated. And my classmates that did have experience certainly didn't seem any better prepared than I.

As long as we're throwing around anecdotal opinions: I've had a harder time training and breaking bad habits of medics with previous EMT experience than I've had training inexperienced new medics. So by your logic, that must mean all medics with previous EMT experience are terrible providers. Sounds like you worked as an EMT before you were a medic... Hmm...
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STXmedic said:
I just had nearly six years if confidence completely stolen by a single forum post...

I wouldn't say I'm overconfident, but I am confident that I'm a capable provider. Apparently there's an ability you develop when you get old that allows you to be able to judge a person's abilities without knowing a thing about them. Luckily I'm not there yet.

I agree that experience makes someone better (assuming its good experience, and not doing the same thing incorrectly over and over again). I am a much better medic than I was when I first started. That doesn't mean I was incompetent and incapable when I first graduated. And my classmates that did have experience certainly didn't seem any better prepared than I.

As long as we're throwing around anecdotal opinions: I've had a harder time training and breaking bad habits of medics with previous EMT experience than I've had training inexperienced new medics. So by your logic, that must mean all medics with previous EMT experience are terrible providers. Sounds like you worked as an EMT before you were a medic... Hmm...
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EMT envy.
 
Now you're just starting to look like your trolling. Good work, I bit.
 
Gotham why is it 'brilliant' for someone to be limited to BLS for 1-2 years? Think what an MD student covers in those 2 years compared to BLS provision? The idea of kids spending 12 months to get a basic emt qualification is scary frankly (unless they have personal reasons such as other studies/family life etc)...if a person can't take onboard the required EMT knowledge and application in <12 months to work on a daily basis I would question if that person should be qualified to do things such as ....drive a car, eat with a knife and fork or use rudimentary tools and opposable thumbs.

Also yes experience CAN help, but yours is limited to NY 911...do you think you are an authority figure when you don't know what emergency medicine is like in various parts of the US or the world, since you value experience so highly?
 
The paramedic school I'm eyeing does require 6 months of EMT work experience on an ambulance, but in my area, it is waayyy to easy for an EMT, even working 911 response, to get 6 months on an ambulance without ever actually doing a full patient assessment and thinking about what treatments are coming up and what the patient needs and so forth. You can very easily just show up with a gurney and wait for the fire medic to say "do this" or "BLS transport to this hospital, adios" and not do anything more than just regurgitate their report to the receiving nurse (without understanding it) and maybe an updated set of vitals. Yet that EMT's experience is equally valid (for the time requirement) as one who actually assesses a patient on a regular basis and has to decide what treatment they need and then give it without waiting for a medic to hold their hand.

So if you're worried about things like whether or not your new medic who wasn't an EMT is still learning how to work a gurney or talk on the radio or whatever other operational detail, well, IMO that stuff isn't exactly rocket scientist, and if a new medic can't learn that during new hire orientation or FTO time, well, I'd be worried about their ability to provide paramedicine and not because they were/weren't an EMT before.
 
Strong BLS background... Priceless.
irishboxer384 said:
Gotham why is it 'brilliant' for someone to be limited to BLS for 1-2 years? Think what an MD student covers in those 2 years compared to BLS provision? The idea of kids spending 12 months to get a basic emt qualification is scary frankly (unless they have personal reasons such as other studies/family life etc)...if a person can't take onboard the required EMT knowledge and application in <12 months to work on a daily basis I would question if that person should be qualified to do things such as ....drive a car, eat with a knife and fork or use rudimentary tools and opposable thumbs.

Also yes experience CAN help, but yours is limited to NY 911...do you think you are an authority figure when you don't know what emergency medicine is like in various parts of the US or the world, since you value experience so highly?
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You're making some apples and oranges comparisons bro.

Yes I can ONLY speak about what I've experienced in 18 years of NYC 911. That is the basis for my opinion.

Medic Tim was describing the basic medic programs in Canada making the point that they try to over come initial lack of experience with very thorough advanced training... and their level of care is much higher than our basics.

... and i find that "Outstanding"
 
Jim37F said:
The paramedic school I'm eyeing does require 6 months of EMT work experience on an ambulance, but in my area, it is waayyy to easy for an EMT, even working 911 response, to get 6 months on an ambulance without ever actually doing a full patient assessment and thinking about what treatments are coming up and what the patient needs and so forth. You can very easily just show up with a gurney and wait for the fire medic to say "do this" or "BLS transport to this hospital, adios" and not do anything more than just regurgitate their report to the receiving nurse (without understanding it) and maybe an updated set of vitals. Yet that EMT's experience is equally valid (for the time requirement) as one who actually assesses a patient on a regular basis and has to decide what treatment they need and then give it without waiting for a medic to hold their hand.

So if you're worried about things like whether or not your new medic who wasn't an EMT is still learning how to work a gurney or talk on the radio or whatever other operational detail, well, IMO that stuff isn't exactly rocket scientist, and if a new medic can't learn that during new hire orientation or FTO time, well, I'd be worried about their ability to provide paramedicine and not because they were/weren't an EMT before.
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Sorry bro. If thats all your EMT's do or are expected to do... or thats all that you did then thats too bad. Maybe your service might want to look into an all ALS model.

Nevertheless that is clearly not "strong BLS background"
 
I honestly don't think its apples to oranges if its studying a subject with both practical and academic portions. What knowledge you can gain in a similar field in 2 years, compared to BLS-level...is vast. The people who failed my EMT class fit into the 'mouth breather' classification, and 5 years of experience wouldn't have helped them be better humans let alone medical providers.

I myself have never worked as an EMT but I have never been accused of being a 'consistently weak medic', I think that is a dangerously general statement that you made in all honesty... a little old fashioned too I think.

I understand the whole 'putting in your time' and the rewards it can entail, but the modern workplace allows people to advance in their various walks of employment based on MERIT, rather than pounding the same beat for 10 years prior at a mediocre level.
 
No Fire medics in NYC
irishboxer384 said:
I honestly don't think its apples to oranges if its studying a subject with both practical and academic portions. What knowledge you can gain in a similar field in 2 years, compared to BLS-level...is vast. The people who failed my EMT class fit into the 'mouth breather' classification, and 5 years of experience wouldn't have helped them be better humans let alone medical providers.

I myself have never worked as an EMT but I have never been accused of being a 'consistently weak medic', I think that is a dangerously general statement that you made in all honesty... a little old fashioned too I think.

I understand the whole 'putting in your time' and the rewards it can entail, but the modern workplace allows people to advance in their various walks of employment based on MERIT, rather than pounding the same beat for 10 years prior at a mediocre level.
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Brother! Clinical experience!

We both work in medicine right? putting in your time is not the idea. I'm not talking labor bro.

You really have a poor opinion of your EMT's.

In NYC 70 to 80% of the service is BLS.
 
Gotham Medic said:
Sorry bro. If thats all your EMT's do or are expected to do... or thats all that you did then thats too bad. Maybe your service might want to look into an all ALS model.

Nevertheless that is clearly not "strong BLS background"
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I'm using that to say not all experience is equal. Simply having ride time on an ambulance doesn't make automatically make for a better paramedic over someone who went straight into paramedic school.

Plus I specifically left a private company where we were pretty much just gurney pushers for an agency where our medics WANT us to be thinking and will often tell us to run the assessment and so on and so forth
 
Jim37F said:
I'm using that to say not all experience is equal. Simply having ride time on an ambulance doesn't make automatically make for a better paramedic over someone who went straight into paramedic school.

Plus I specifically left a private company where we were pretty much just gurney pushers for an agency where our medics WANT us to be thinking and will often tell us to run the assessment and so on and so forth
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I think we are in agreement.
 
My point was that you are stating people are consistently weak medics if they have little or no prior EMT experience. I'm stating it depends fully on the person and how they absorb information and react situationally
 
irishboxer384 said:
My point was that you are stating people are consistently weak medics if they have little or no prior EMT experience. I'm stating it depends fully on the person and how they absorb information and react situationally
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I understand.
Some people no matter what their experience will never learn.

Some sensative mature learners can apply even weak training and do very well.

I was responding to the original posts on this thread based on my experience. I concede your point but I still stand by what I have observed in the field.
 
Wow I missed 2 pages of posts and I just read all this.

Someone mentioned medic schools requiring experience.

In NYC, I've looked at a couple programs:
  1. St Johns in Queens. No experience necessary. http://www.stjohns.edu/academics/sc...rams-and-majors/paramedic-program-certificate
  2. Methodist Hospital at Brooklyn. 4 months EMT experience. This was just changed I swear I read last year on this very same page they required you to work a 911 job while going to school simultaneously. http://www.stjohns.edu/academics/sc...rams-and-majors/paramedic-program-certificate
 
I think its beneficial to have SOME EMT experience before becoming a Paramedic, but there is a point of diminishing return where working as an EMT really doesn't add much to your knowledge or skill level that would be beneficial as a Paramedic, and that point is reached fairly quickly, probably within 6 months of working BLS, maybe a little longer if you are working a Basic/Medic truck.
 
I dont think you need any time as EMT in yhe field prior to medic. It might be useful for.some people but not.everyone needs it. Teaches you bad habits you need to unlearn
 
Gotham Medic said:
Strong BLS background... Priceless.



You're making some apples and oranges comparisons bro.

Yes I can ONLY speak about what I've experienced in 18 years of NYC 911. That is the basis for my opinion.

Medic Tim was describing the basic medic programs in Canada making the point that they try to over come initial lack of experience with very thorough advanced training... and their level of care is much higher than our basics.

... and i find that "Outstanding"
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Yes, the basis of your opinion, which you throwing out as fact. Your experiences may not correlate with others, that does not make them wrong.

Also, please do not post a new reply for each response you have. There is no reason to have five replies in a row. One with all the content will suffice.
 
TransportJockey said:
I dont think you need any time as EMT in yhe field prior to medic. It might be useful for.some people but not.everyone needs it. Teaches you bad habits you need to unlearn
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What kind of bad habits?

If you are learning bad habits as an EMT how are you not learning bad habits as a medic?

How do you expect to perform at the ALS level with little to no clinical experience?
 
Gotham Medic said:
What kind of bad habits?

If you are learning bad habits as an EMT how are you not learning bad habits as a medic?

How do you expect to perform at the ALS level with little to no clinical experience?
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How does a nurse perform as a full rn without having spent time as an lpn or cna? A doctor be a doctor without having spent time as a pa? EMTs in medic school tend to get quite a few clinical hours, both in hospital and in the field. It much better prepares them than the limited clinical time an EMT student gets
And I can think of emts who have had to be retaught a physical exam becAuse they picked up bad habits from their employer and coworkers, same with infection control technique. We have a great bs-ems program here in nm that puts out 'zero to hero' medics that can run circles around lots of medics who spent years and years as an EMT.
And as for learning bad habits as a medic, we all do. But if you have the proper education from the start, a lot of the bad habits might not happen because you have the education behind the 'why' to not take shortcuts.
 
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