Massive MCI at Astroworld

CCCSD

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I find it interesting he/she went on to publicly post that. Had that been me I would have shut my mouth and none said anything at all.
And he should be ripped apart on all forms of media. Outed as an idiot for all to see, especially his dept.
 

CbrMonster

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And he should be ripped apart on all forms of media. Outed as an idiot for all to see, especially his dept.
I mean it in my mind does nullify a bit of his “witnessing” of lack of quality care at the event as he claims simply because he himself became more of a problem than a solution.

But I don’t think his department should pay the price or Publicly humiliated.
 

CCCSD

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I mean it in my mind does nullify a bit of his “witnessing” of lack of quality care at the event as he claims simply because he himself became more of a problem than a solution.

But I don’t think his department should pay the price or Publicly humiliated.
Oh no. He’s talking smack, he gets outed as does his agency, since he’s representing it.
 

HardKnocks

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What everybody's missing is the failure of the Incident Action Plan (IAP).

Almost every large event where First Responders are assigned should have an active IAP.

The IAP address MCI's.

I'm not going to surmise what part of the IAP failed.

Here's the FEMA ICS Templates on what should have been completed and on-site during the Event.


HK
 

CbrMonster

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Oh no. He’s talking smack, he gets outed as does his agency, since he’s representing it.
Seems he’s gone back and deleted comments on Reddit, At least from what I can tell, but plenty of nurses including ICU nurses who are literally saying paradoc medics have no experience in cardiac arrests.

But I’m also like what average nurse actually deals with an mci? Especially ICU nurses with even smaller rations. Seems a lot of jumping the gun.

Also sadly the girl that was dropped on her face by police assisting the medics passed away today so total count is 9 deaths, I feel for her parents as the last semblance of her body is that video smeared all over the internet.
 

HardKnocks

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Did any wonder why the EMS Carts had no Siren activated.

In my 25 yrs a Siren is better than Warning Lights in moving a Pedestrian/Crowd.

Thinking out Loud; A Horn would of also gotten people to look at the Cart Operator who would be signalling to make a clear path
 

CbrMonster

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Did any wonder why the EMS Carts had no Siren activated.

In my 25 yrs a Siren is better than Warning Lights in moving a Pedestrian/Crowd.

Thinking out Loud; A Horn would of also gotten people to look at the Cart Operator who would be signalling to make a clear path
They over took and started dancing on it, you think those kids would have cared if you ran the sirens on them? They probably would have lashed out with anger at them.

I don’t think I would have even bothered entering into the mob without a police escort if people were getting crushed what’s to say they wouldn’t crush in on you. Can’t trust people to always do the right thing. Clearly they demonstrated they would kill their fellow party goer.
 

DesertMedic66

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Did any wonder why the EMS Carts had no Siren activated.

In my 25 yrs a Siren is better than Warning Lights in moving a Pedestrian/Crowd.

Thinking out Loud; A Horn would of also gotten people to look at the Cart Operator who would be signalling to make a clear path
Usually the festival directors and artist get a little pissed if someone is using their siren while there is an active performance so many of the golf carts at the events do not have a siren and some may not even have response lights.
 

HardKnocks

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Usually the festival directors and artist get a little pissed if someone is using their siren while there is an active performance so many of the golf carts at the events do not have a siren and some may not even have response lights.
I understand it was uncontrolled Kaos......Just thinking out loud;


The other idea of using audible signalling is to get the attention of the Spotter, (who is up high looking for things that can't be seen from ground level) and would then direct resources, (LEOS/Security) to assist.

Btw, The on-site security has been reported to have refused the pre-show staging of Local Fire/EMS Assets on the venue grounds. Then when the response was needed they misrouted the vehicle assets and caused unnecessary response delays.

So many levels of failure..........
 
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DrParasite

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What everybody's missing is the failure of the Incident Action Plan (IAP).

Almost every large event where First Responders are assigned should have an active IAP.

The IAP address MCI's.

I'm not going to surmise what part of the IAP failed.
maybe because it didn't? Based on my experience with ParaDocs, working a live nation event, I can say with a high degree of certainty that there was an IAP in place, and MCIs were covered. If I were to guess, I would say it involved calling for mutual aid from the local 911 system, but they (HFD) still needs to drive there. I don't know of a single MCI where you have all of your mutual aid immediately available; if so, than it's event resources, and not really mutual aid. You are making a lot of assumptions here

At least from what I can tell, but plenty of nurses including ICU nurses who are literally saying paradoc medics have no experience in cardiac arrests.
I'm throwing the BS flag on this. It's completely untrue; it's like saying the medic on the ambulance have no experience in cardiac arrests. Does anyone believe that? Absolutely not, because it's flat out wrong. Now, are there some EMTs who have no experience with cardiac arrests? sure, especially if they don't work on a 911 ambulance. Even a paramedic who doesn't work on the ambulance might have limited experience (don't they require them to be handled in paramedic school, on field clinicals?)

and I will say there are many nurses who have no experience handling a cardiac arrest in the field, with limited equipment, all by themselves, while their coworker was doing CPR on another person 20 yards away.
But I’m also like what average nurse actually deals with an mci? Especially ICU nurses with even smaller rations. Seems a lot of jumping the gun.
The vast majority of nurses, outside of an ER nurse in an understaffed inner city ER, are in no position to be judging any MCI, because they have no experience working in that type of environment.

Did any wonder why the EMS Carts had no Siren activated.

In my 25 yrs a Siren is better than Warning Lights in moving a Pedestrian/Crowd.

Thinking out Loud; A Horn would of also gotten people to look at the Cart Operator who would be signalling to make a clear path
1) many of the EMS carts don't have sirens
2) using a siren when you are that close to people's ears is likely to cause hearing damage to both the providers and the crowd
3) a horn might help, but I doubt it's going to be louder than the artist's sound systems or the crowd level of noise
4) a better option is to have people (like security) walking in front of the cart gently moving people out of the way so the cart can pass.
 

CbrMonster

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maybe because it didn't? Based on my experience with ParaDocs, working a live nation event, I can say with a high degree of certainty that there was an IAP in place, and MCIs were covered. If I were to guess, I would say it involved calling for mutual aid from the local 911 system, but they (HFD) still needs to drive there. I don't know of a single MCI where you have all of your mutual aid immediately available; if so, than it's event resources, and not really mutual aid. You are making a lot of assumptions here


I'm throwing the BS flag on this. It's completely untrue; it's like saying the medic on the ambulance have no experience in cardiac arrests. Does anyone believe that? Absolutely not, because it's flat out wrong. Now, are there some EMTs who have no experience with cardiac arrests? sure, especially if they don't work on a 911 ambulance. Even a paramedic who doesn't work on the ambulance might have limited experience (don't they require them to be handled in paramedic school, on field clinicals?)

and I will say there are many nurses who have no experience handling a cardiac arrest in the field, with limited equipment, all by themselves, while their coworker was doing CPR on another person 20 yards away.
sounds like we are in violent agreement lol
 

HardKnocks

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2) using a siren when you are that close to people's ears is likely to cause hearing damage to both the providers and the crowd
FYI, Average Concert Sound Levels range from 150-175+ dB.

I doubt a 30w Cart Siren, will hurt (as a Cart has a limited electrical system).....Unless you embed an Ear in the Siren's Speaker for over a minute or so..lol

I've always been success in moving pedestrians with a Tap on of the siren/horn, People will Look and Move.
 
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DrParasite

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FYI, Average Concert Sound Levels range from 150-175+ dB.
you might want to double-check that... as per https://www.reference.com/science/many-decibels-rock-concert-1b1e7439ec0d2158, A loud rock concert has a sound pressure level of 115-120 decibels.

as per https://www.alpinehearingprotection.com/music/hearing-protection-festivals-concerts/, "Do not stand too close to the speakers. The noise around the speakers can soon go up to over 110 decibels" and "The average noise volume at a concert or festival is around 100 decibels."

for comparison, a football game can generate 110 dB of noise, as per https://4f9f43c1b16d77fd5a81-7c3252...00/12448/012714oticonsuperbowlinfographic.pdf
I doubt a 30w Cart Siren, will hurt (as a Cart has a limited electrical system).....Unless you embed an Ear in the Siren's Speaker for over a minute or so..lol
according to https://www.amazon.com/Epsilont-Outdoor-Self-Contained-Electric-Security/dp/B01E9P0G5K, a 30w siren can go as loud as 120bB. The https://www.covertlights.com/feniex-titan-30w-siren/ can go as high as 110db.

The biggest difference is at a concert, the loudest spot is right near the speakers, which aren't a foot away from a person (They are on the stage, elevated, and there is often a barrier that keeps the crowd 10+ ft from the actual speakers). When you are in a cart, pushing through a crowd, you are right up against people, which is where the dB is the highest
 
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DrParasite

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Summit

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What shocks me is that there was not a mechanism to stop the concert. There should have been an indication and a mechanism to order "flashing lights off, house lights on, kill the music, address the crowd."

If they were doing a proper START triage, then they wouldn't be doing CPR on a MCI
There are many times that START does not work.

I think a crowd crush MCI is absolutely a time where START does not apply well. Compressive asphyxia is the primary mechanism. People are gonna be apneic and maybe PEA and a little CPR can go a long way. It is probably the only intervention you could possibly do that would make a difference, followed by AED, O2 and maybe needling a trampled chest.
 

DesertMedic66

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What shocks me is that there was not a mechanism to stop the concert. There should have been an indication and a mechanism to order "flashing lights off, house lights on, kill the music, address the crowd."


There are many times that START does not work.

I think a crowd crush MCI is absolutely a time where START does not apply well. Compressive asphyxia is the primary mechanism. People are gonna be apneic and maybe PEA and a little CPR can go a long way. It is probably the only intervention you could possibly do that would make a difference, followed by AED, O2 and maybe needling a trampled chest.
There are usually systems built in to stop the music and turn on all the lights however there is a very strict number of people, often the number is in the low single digits, who have the authority to give that order.
 

Summit

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There are usually systems built in to stop the music and turn on all the lights however there is a very strict number of people, often the number is in the low single digits, who have the authority to give that order.
Makes sense. Those people should be on speed dial or easy radio access for the security and medical crew.

"Show boss, security 4, one dozen dead people in section 15, multiple CPR, crowd crush. Stop the show."
"Roger. Crap. Stopping the show"

Guess what didn't happen for like 35 minutes?
 

CCCSD

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Makes sense. Those people should be on speed dial or easy radio access for the security and medical crew.

"Show boss, security 4, one dozen dead people in section 15, multiple CPR, crowd crush. Stop the show."
"Roger. Crap. Stopping the show"

Guess what didn't happen for like 35 minutes?
“Sorry. Not going to stop the show just yet. Gotta sell more CDs and T shirts.”
 

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