Love to get some feedback here....

I understand where you are coming from. I am no lawyer but I do know that the gold standard for determining if there is negligence is "Was there a deviation from the standard of care?"

One could easily jump at the fact that the standard of care is to obviously start CPR and provide high quality compressions on a firm surface. The question would be "Did they intentionally deviate from the standard of care?" or did they just not know the importance of delaying compressions? Did they not realize that the life saving interventions in cardiac arrest are early defibrillation and high-quality compressions and NOT all the ALS stuff that was still 20 minutes away?

I think these are valid questions and I appreciate your feedback.

Agreed that I don't think there was any malicious intent. However, I still see professional negligence. CPR is required to be recertified every 2 years. Over the past few years early, quality compressions have been the main point which is why I cited negligence.

Malicious? Absolutely not, from where I sit. Negligent. Absolutely. If you are to operate as a first responder you need to be educated to the national standard.
 
I am sorry for your loss. I can imagine how awfully frustrating that must have been to watch. For what it's worth, I am quite impressed at the restraint and professionalism that you were able to maintain throughout the entire situation. It's up to you to bring the situation to light appropriately so that corrective action can be taken.
 
You're a seasoned Paramedic and you let a hand on your shoulder telling you you're in the way stop you?

Oh boy...


Glad I live in Michigan.
 
Disgraceful, these people can't even perform at a basic first aid level.

\
I would put in a complaint, or at least some sort of action to remedy the education or protocols of this group/department/volunteer organisation.

When people call for help- they expect it.
 
You're a seasoned Paramedic and you let a hand on your shoulder telling you you're in the way stop you?

Oh boy...


Glad I live in Michigan.

I am sure it is very easy to sit on the sidelines and say it should have been an easy decision. However, as I mentioned before, it was very clear that if I pressed on, PD would have intervened. If that would have happened all hell would have broken loose not to mention a disaster for the family that was in the hallway. This was their scene and I was simply an bystander who claims to be a paramedic wearing sweapants, sandals, and a sweatshirt.

Being a seasoned medic, nurse, or anything short of a physician has no legal standpoint in any state when one is off-duty. I made my attempt to intervene. They made it very clear that they were in charge and that they were not going to listen to me.
 
Being a seasoned medic, nurse, or anything short of a physician has no legal standpoint in any state when one is off-duty. I made my attempt to intervene. They made it very clear that they were in charge and that they were not going to listen to me.

Guess that's where it is quite different in our country...if an ambulance officer comes across an incident while off duty...they are deemed on duty from then on.
Mind you...we don't have the same legal issues as you all have, when it comes to that.
 
As an educator, my biggest concern with this situation is that it will probably never come to light in a sense that any of those involved would learn from it. If I ever confronted them or their medical director (who I am close with) it would only cause controversy and conflict.

This agency left the scene thinking that they did a quality job and were doing the best they could. I do not think that they were being malicious or lazy. I think that they simply don't have the knowledge and education to be able to provide the proper service. I think they think that delaying CPR will have little to no effect on the overall outcome of the PT

At a minimum, they must be AHA CPR certified. But that is a problem in it of itself as we all know how little accountability there is with properly following the AHA curriculum when taking a BLS, ACLS, PALS class.
If it was as you presented the situation, or if that was even reasonably accurate,* then you absolutely should bring this up with their medical director. In a formal manner, not as one friend to another.

I don't see to much of an issue with not allowing you to help; it's very unfortunate, but it is hard to know when someone is telling the truth about what they are or just blowing smoke onscene. Often the best course is to not allow them to help, unless it's really needed (ie another person to do compressions). I'm sure you allready know that though.

The poor performance of CPR...that needs to be dealt with. You said that this was a volunteer department and that the ALS service was 30 minutes away...guessing that this is also a very low volume department that only practices at the EMT (or lower) level. If that's the case then they need more education, and more training. Which they won't get unless you start the process but lodging a formal complaint with their medical director.

You discovered a large problem that is widespread in the US. Either ignore it, or try and fix it.
 
I am sorry for your loss

This agency left the scene thinking that they did a quality job and were doing the best they could.

This is the key phrase.

They probably were doing the best they could.

Not everyone can be an olympic gold medalist.

Not everyone can be an outstanding healthcare provider. Sometimes it is just luck of the draw who you get to take care of you or a loved one.

Too many provider in my opinion, measure success by what they did yesterday instead of the standard of perfection.

None of us will ever reach perfection, but it is the unwavering journey towards it that determines makes us better.

One you start being satisfied with being "better than yesterday," your journey to be an outstanding provider has ended.
 
For the future

When I read this...

I asked if he had a pulse and the FD in charge states "well, deer deer,, that thing on his finger says he's got one but I don't feel one,,,,deer deer deer."

My first question was "Did your friend have a pacemaker on board?"

The AED did NOT kick in. Why? Was he a flat line? I suppose we'll never know will we. There's a disconnect that doesn't make sense here. The AED is supposed to be a no brainer, but still, in the absence of a pulse, Compressions are a no-brainer as well; and that takes precedence over all.

An AED is not meant to be a substitute for compressions, nor is it a diagnostic tool for DOA. It is what you do AFTER compressions have begun. No one in that room including you could call off that Code once intervention was begun.

Also, in your narrative, you don't ID when the patient lost consciousness:
I was standing in the hallway looking into the bedroom and saw the old man lying on the bed looking pale and apneic. I kept my distance but stayed to comfort the girl. The girl states she just saw him come out of the shower 5 minutes ago

The time for intervention was that moment you observed he was apneic and no one was doing anything. Did NO ONE in that room know you? Remember, you asked for feedback here, please accept this as my Monday Morning Quarterbacking in hopes that next time YOU will be more clear on the actions you need to take according to your training.

Consider that if you step in and begin Compressions per current standards on a pulseless and apneic patient, you have the right to politely tell the people as you do it something like, "This man is without a pulse. I am a certified paramedic (which you could prove, right?) I'm beginning resuscitative efforts according to my training. From this point on, critical care has begun. Unless you're qualified to declare the patient dead, stopping me can result in grave consequences for you."

The FD or PD would have to physically remove you from the patient. Now, they would be the ones looking bad.

Functionally, if you begin, you'd likely be able to get relief. The name of this game was to keep something going until ALS (a higher, identifiable authority) arrived.

I stayed in the hallway and watched as FD attached an AED and a pulse ox. 5 minutes went by with no interventions.

That's five minutes you chose not to act. I'm not trying to shame you here. I can totally understand the confusion at the scene and the dilemma you were facing, including not wanting to come off as Ricky Rescue. Still, that was five minutes you let go by without doing anything, which amounted to you almost guaranteeing that you COULDN'T step in after the fact.

And this reads like five minutes went by without the AED telling anyone anything and everyone incompetently not taking action in deference to a machine. Again, there is a disconnect here; you BEGIN compressions, period.

So, I stepped into the room and politely introduced myself. I asked if he had a pulse and the FD in charge states "well, deer deer,, that thing on his finger says he's got one but I don't feel one,,,,deer deer deer."

...and that's where you go and feel for one. If there is none, "No pulse, I'm beginning compressions!"

If you politely introduce yourself as a provider of the next higher level of care, then those present know what their responsibilities are. If you introduce yourself with ID, then you have credibilility. If none on you, then let your actions speak for you and BEGIN.

In this case, it was your hesitation that prevented you from stepping in. Every moment that passed where you did not intervene made it that much more difficult for you to take control of the scene.

And yes, that's what needed to happen. No one took control of the scene.

Another fireman was fumbling constantly with an OPA. There were still no interventions taking place. They repeatedly hit the analyze button that said 'no shock advised.' By this time it has been about 10 minutes since they arrived.

(Your reporting could have been much better.) When they got there was secondary to when the patient lost consciousness and became pulseless. No one asked? No one knew? How did the FD get called in the first place?

All in all, you stepped in to a very bad situation. Your hesitation was completely understandable to me -- I have experienced much the same. So here was a situation where all the forces of the universe conspired to allow this 85 year old man to pass into the next dimension. You were all players in the inevitable.
 
On the other hand, if the FD and the PD did not know who this guy was,they could be viewing the ts as just some guy who welcomed himself into this patient's house and was attempting to intervene.
 
My first question was "Did your friend have a pacemaker on board?"

The AED did NOT kick in. Why? Was he a flat line? I suppose we'll never know will we. There's a disconnect that doesn't make sense here. The AED is supposed to be a no brainer,

He did not have a pacemaker. This AED looked 10 years old. There was nothing automated about it. You had to push to analyze. It did not reanalyze every 2 min.

Also, in your narrative, you don't ID when the patient lost consciousness:

He apparently lost consciousness in the 5 min window when he came out of the shower and then when the girl came back in and found him unresponsive


Did NO ONE in that room know you?

No, they did not know me. I work full-time at the college as a EMT/Paramedic instructor and I work on an ambulance in a neighboring system

Consider that if you step in and begin Compressions per current standards on a pulseless and apneic patient, you have the right to politely tell the people as you do it something like, "This man is without a pulse. I am a certified paramedic (which you could prove, right?) I'm beginning resuscitative efforts according to my training. From this point on, critical care has begun. Unless you're qualified to declare the patient dead, stopping me can result in grave consequences for you."

I did identify myself as a paramedic but I did not have any credentials on me. First, you must remember that although they were not doing CPR it took me a few minutes of my own history taking to figure out what was going on. My first thought when I was standing in the hallway was that he must have lividity or rigor and they were going to pronounce him because they were all just standing there. But once I saw them put the pulse ox on, I figured he must have had a pulse.

I didn't know he was pulseless until I went in and checked for myself. I was assuming that these guys knew what they were doing. Once I realized there was no pulse I was very torn on how to react. The family was standing in the hallway.

That's five minutes you chose not to act.

Again, like I said, I wasn't sure he had no pulse during those first 5 minutes.



If you politely introduce yourself as a provider of the next higher level of care, then those present know what their responsibilities are. If you introduce yourself with ID, then you have credibilility. If none on you, then let your actions speak for you and BEGIN.

This is written/spoken much easier than it sounds. We have all been on many scenes and there is really no instance where I would EVER let a bystander assess or intervene with my patient unless they were a proven physician willing to take over care.

These guys made it very clear with there movements and attitudes that they DID think I was Ricky Rescue


How did the FD get called in the first place?

The wife called and said he was not breathing. While walking into the hallway I did over hear an FD saying something to the effect of 'trying to give him oxygen.' The family simply told me that they thought he was 'not breathing right' when I first walked over.

There's no way I was going to just walk right in and start taking over the scene if this was all I had to go on. I assumed at first that the FD was in the room assessing the PT. I had no clue he was in cardiac arrest until I actually had a moment to watch from the hallway.

All in all, you stepped in to a very bad situation. Your hesitation was completely understandable to me -- I have experienced much the same. So here was a situation where all the forces of the universe conspired to allow this 85 year old man to pass into the next dimension. You were all players in the inevitable.

I feel that the first half of my presence there was not hesitation as I was trying to unofficially get a history and find out what was wrong with the PT without getting in the FD's way.....

However, I do think that my hesitation after I walked in and checked a pulse was a problem. I should have been more firm and pressed on. However, I still think that these guys would have thought I was Ricky Rescue and thrown me out.

I did find out that this department is in fact a career FD service. They have 2 paid guys on during the day and the rest are volunteers. I am not sure their level of medical licensure. So, one can assume that 2 of the guys there were at least paid city employees which tells me they should be held even more accountable for their patient care, or lack thereof.

I also have a meeting with their medical director next Monday. We shall see how that goes.

I appreciate your feedback and I do take it all to heart. This should be a great learning experience for any one on this forum. I think this is a unique situation where an off-duty higher level of care paramedic witnessed an on-duty BLS service doing harm to the patient. Being on the helicopter or an ambulance I have never had a problem taking care of this situation as I have had a medical director who is ultimately authorizing me to run the scene. This was different, I had no one authorizing me and they had a medical director authorizing them.

You're right, I probably should've made more of an effort to light a fire under their ***...
 
I am interested to hear how your meeting goes with the Medical Director.

As the highest trained healthcare provider onscene, I would think you would have direct responsibility to intervene when substandard care is being delivered. Granted, you were off-duty... but you made your presence known and identified yourself as a Paramedic which in my opinion makes you very much apart of the situation. I'm not saying it gives the right to take over automatically, but when a patient is observed in cardiac arrest with no treatment being given, ethically and maybe even legally, you have a responsibility to that patient. You are a Paramedic in the state that this happened, correct?

And I know the argument can be made that you were in street clothes and had no ID/credentials on you, and the FD responders can claim they thought you were just Joe Civilian pretending... but as someone else stated, your actions could speak for themselves and any resistance would have been worth the backlash. With that said, I totally understand your position and not wanting to be a featured headline on JEMS.com, but sometimes we need to step in where others are obviously failing and put the patient first. It's hard to say what we would do for sure until actually in the situation firsthand, but I like to think I'm pretty certain that if I observed a patient in cardiac arrest with BLS responders doing absolutely nothing to get blood flowing, I would be very assertive in making it happen.

There are so many variables, arguments, and interpretations, that's its hard for anyone to say what the outcome will be, so I'm just throwing out some of my own thoughts and things that may matter in a formal hearing of some sort.

No doubt you were in a tough situation and I agree, its a good learning case for everyone on the forum.
 
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In late but I see this thread is still going. I've been holding off posting but I think 18G just nailed it.

Paramedics aren't shy and this was your neighbor and friend as you say.
 
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FourLoko, that's uncalled for. "Saving your friend" is not a reason to act without thought.
 
It's really easy for people on here to armchair quarterback your situation and make judgements, but I'm sure if you watched them do their job you could easily do the same thing to them. Putting myself in your situation, I can understand how that would of been an incredibly difficult decision to make. In my opinion though if people are going to be responding to medical situations they need to be trained on how handle them. (I'm talking about the FD, not you.)

Codes should be cut and dry situations that these guys could make a difference in. The care provided was unacceptable, and I got pretty angry as I read your post, because I have met many firefighters who "only want to fight fire" and "don't want to know any of that medical stuff", yet they respond to medical calls as part of their job.

I believe you did the best you could in that situation, and you're friend would probably understand. The only thing you can do now is do everything in your power to make sure that this doesn't happen to someone else. How you go about that is up to you, but I feel it would be a huge disservice to your community to say nothing.
 
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I would go with the suggestions above to be reasonable and treat it professionally and not like a "civilian" with a personal vendetta. Present your issues like an objective audit of what you saw.
 
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I would approach the family with your views and ask them if they (knowing your point of view) agree that you should pursue this. Don’t go full on saying that what they did killed the pt, or that even if they did it correctly that he would have survived even though we all know he would have had a better chance. But explain that to them, that your opinion he would have had a better chance, and that you would like to use this as a teaching example to try and make a change for the next pt.
And then take it to the medical director and explain your side and that you would like to take this opportunity to improve the care they provide.
And obviously I would wait a few weeks before addressing the family, make sure they have finished with everything related to his death. But go ahead and professional write down your side, as if you were writing a pcr.
I am sorry for your loss, and I can only imagine how tough it was to just stand there knowing that something more could have been done, and could even have made for a better outcome.
 
I do also want to commend you for the way you did react; you gave them ample time, and even tried to lead them by example. I think the way you stopped when you were advised to by the FD person who was in charge, was the best thing to do. Had you resisted, there probably would have been some sort of altercation, however minor, and that could have further delayed pt care, and the family did not need to see anything of the sort. Again I cannot begin to imagine how hard it must have been to just step aside like you did after those in charge told you to. I myself don’t know I would have been able to do that and that would not be good for the pt or the family.
 
Hold on now!

I would approach the family with your views and ask them if they (knowing your point of view) agree that you should pursue this. .

I have to heartily disagree with this one as no matter how you present it you're putting the family in the position of re-opening or opening a wound and causing them great distress. Even waiting for time to pass won't make it productive for anyone.

You asking the question clearly implies your disagreement with what happened, therefore putting the family in a very uncomfortable position.

This is purely an "internal" sort of thing where, if it's felt necessary to ask questions, they should be asked in terms of "How can things improve here?"
 
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