Live sticks

JPINFV said:
participate with the rest of your classmates? Fail that specific course. I'd say that I'd rather have my arm practiced with for an IV than be the guinea pig for the FAST IO demonstration as in the other thread.

Heck, my understanding is that police officers get to experience being tazed before being allowed to carry a tazer.
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A- Are IO's practiced on eachother??

B-I believe you're correct about the tazer, at least around here
 
mikie333 said:
A- Are IO's practiced on eachother??

B-I believe you're correct about the tazer, at least around here
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I honestly don't know, but I consider IOs, and the risk of infection, to be a completely different ball game than IVs.
 
Just FYI - Taser, Inc does not require "volunteer exposure" except for their Master Instructors.

However, as I understand it, peer pressure within the local departments means that everyone gets "tased"... becuase they don't want to be ribbed for not taking the ride.


As for IO's - Do you want me to put one it you, ever? The answer should be no... unless I'm dying.
 
Jon said:
As for IO's - Do you want me to put one it you, ever? The answer should be no... unless I'm dying.
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I actually got threatened with that once. Severe stomach pain, dehydrated, very crappy veins. After the second medic attempted an iv and missed our BLS supervisor told them she would get the io, and she would get to insert it, since she was a supervisor and had gone through the class. Apparently, I went even more pale (didn't think that was possible) and one of the medics shoved her out the back of the truck. Such fun.

-Kat
 
Under no circumstances would an IO actually be practiced on another person in class. Ever. Period. We had to practice doing them with the dummy legs, and I was squirming just doing that. Who, in their right mind, "guinea pig" or instructor, would allow another person to basically screw a large bore metal needle into their leg or their sternum? Answer: NO ONE. It is even said here
that a conscious adult must be treated with lidocaine at the insertion site and that lido must also be injected into the marrow before it is perfused, but we're talking about using an IO only if it in impossible to achieve IV placement elsewhere, i.e. you're patient's conscious now, but probably won't be for much longer. And I guarantee you anyone who isn't near consciousness is going to deck you if you do come at them with an IO, those things are scary! :wacko:
 
I figured IO wouldn't be practiced on eachother. Just confirming.

So how is it practiced, mannequin?
 
TCERT1987 said:
Under no circumstances would an IO actually be practiced on another person in class. Ever. Period. We had to practice doing them with the dummy legs, and I was squirming just doing that. Who, in their right mind, "guinea pig" or instructor, would allow another person to basically screw a large bore metal needle into their leg or their sternum? Answer: NO ONE. It is even said here
that a conscious adult must be treated with lidocaine at the insertion site and that lido must also be injected into the marrow before it is perfused, but we're talking about using an IO only if it in impossible to achieve IV placement elsewhere, i.e. you're patient's conscious now, but probably won't be for much longer. And I guarantee you anyone who isn't near consciousness is going to deck you if you do come at them with an IO, those things are scary! :wacko:
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_G6I27XTj0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGln7vnnI3o&feature=related

It happens, but there has to be a better way...
 
Remember... soliders are property of uncle sam... he can do whatever he wants, within reason.

I wouldn't be in line to volunteer... but if it means that everyone's seen it done on a real person, it might save a life.

But that discussion is a little OT.
 
TCERT1987 said:
Under no circumstances would an IO actually be practiced on another person in class. Ever. Period. We had to practice doing them with the dummy legs, and I was squirming just doing that. Who, in their right mind, "guinea pig" or instructor, would allow another person to basically screw a large bore metal needle into their leg or their sternum? Answer: NO ONE. It is even said here
that a conscious adult must be treated with lidocaine at the insertion site and that lido must also be injected into the marrow before it is perfused, but we're talking about using an IO only if it in impossible to achieve IV placement elsewhere, i.e. you're patient's conscious now, but probably won't be for much longer. And I guarantee you anyone who isn't near consciousness is going to deck you if you do come at them with an IO, those things are scary! :wacko:
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A little lesson, bones have no nerve endings itself, so lidocaine locally would only be for the insertion site itself and doubt it would help. It has been studied several times, and in fact our college team will use an EZ I/O for football players that are severally dehydrated. They rate the pain 3/10 and comparable to peripheral IV insertions. Some even described less painful. Lidocaine 1%, 1mg is added to the solution to decrease pain from the pressure of the periosteum, and this has been very successful.

R/r 911
 
All the more reason to fully understand a procedure before you ever consider doing it. Ever. At all.

It is not that uncommon for IO's to be placed in conscious and alert patients. In fact the most common time that it probably happens is when a sales rep is demo'ing the product to a prospective buyer. Yes, you did read that correctly; it happens fairly regularly. As well, if you were to do a search on the internet for IO insertions, I'm sure you'd find video's of plenty being done on regular people.

The pain doesn't come from the insertion; as has been said, bones don't feel a whole hell of a lot. The people I know personally who have had it done rate the pain at about the same as a larger bore IV. Now, they all do agree (and I've seen this first hand) that when you start to infuse fluids there will be a huge upswing in the amount of pain felt; that is why lidocaine is infused immedietly after confirmation of the placement; it's not used topically at all.

If you are going to do something, learn about it. Learn about every aspect of it, or don't consider doing it. Ever.
 
Point well taken. I still think that, in a general classroom setting, it's somewhat inappropriate, especially as our instructors kept saying that it was highly unlikely that we would ever use an IO. However, if I were being specifically trained on IO, yes, I would prefer to practice on an actual patient or on a bone-based derivative.

Also, when I was talking about the amount of pain/discomfort, I was thinking more about manually inserted IOs, not the EZ-IOs or IO guns.
 
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TCERT1987 said:
Point well taken. I still think that, in a general classroom setting, it's somewhat inappropriate, especially as our instructors kept saying that it was highly unlikely that we would ever use an IO. However, if I were being specifically trained on IO, yes, I would prefer to practice on an actual patient or on a bone-based derivative.

Also, when I was talking about the amount of pain/discomfort, I was thinking more about manually inserted IOs, not the EZ-IOs or IO guns.
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Oh, well that's not your fault, you were just going off what your instructor told you.

Oh, well that's your own fault, you were just going off what your instructor told you.

Confused yet? :blink:

If you haven't noticed, EMS education as a whole in the US is sorely lacking; one way this manifests itself is in the lack of any standard for who can teach a class. Point being, you should listen to what you're taught, but don't ever think that just because someone is an instructor they are always right, are teaching you all that you need to know about a particular topic (they never are), have kept up with current trends, or are even right at all.

It's relevant here because your instructor is wrong. With the multiple IO devices out there beyond the standard Illinois needle (BIG, FAST, EZ-IO) it is very LIKELY that you WILL start an IO on someone at some point in your career. I'd go so far as to say that you are almost gaurenteed to. Ped IO's are standard, and adult IO's are getting to be that way too. Something to be aware of. So knowing how to do it and all complications/indications and having experience doing it is smart.

Far as doing it in class...it's been done before. Honestly, why shouldn't you do it? And since we're learning here, why would a manual (excluding the FAST...maybe) IO hurt more than a powered one? I'll give you a hint...if done right, it wouldn't.

Cheers.
 
I believe I/O is too risky to practice in the classroom Too great of chance of osteomyletitis, and one might hit the epiphyseal plate. The training model is a great tool to learn on enough...

R/r 911
 
Reading the original thread, i must say term "live sticks" got my attention. I thought it was some fancy new piece equipment, such as a Lumi stick (Ha-Ha)!!

Anyway, we also performed venipuncture on each other, post doing it on the manikens. I have now problem with it, as long as it supervised and correct procedures and techniqeus are followed. However, i will not force someone in doing it, as there can be complications.

The other side is, where do you stop with practising procedures on yourselves. Its OK to do a traction splint, or spinal immobolisation, but what about inflation of the MAST. Some people are fortunate enough to have a suppresed gag reflex, and students have even intubated each other during hospital pracs and walked around like that. What's next: "Hey buddy, just lie still, i'm clear, you're clear, we're all clear..." (Someone has defibrilated their own femur, to show that a low setting is harmless, needles to say, a fractured femur was the result)
 
Ops Paramedic said:
...Some people are fortunate enough to have a suppresed gag reflex, and students have even intubated each other during hospital pracs and walked around like that...
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Have you ever seen Dr. R. Levitan's videos and presentations? He likes to scope himself while talking, and then provide a guided tour of his respiratory system.
 
Well, as far as weird things done to willing participants, one of the guys in our class allowed himself to have an NPA placed. He said it felt very weird and that the lube was the worst.

Also, two of my supervisors at my old company decided to see how it felt to be defibrillated...needless to say that only one of them is still a supervisor, and only by the skin of his teeth...

And OK triemal04, when and where can we get together so I can practice my IO skills?? :)
 
TCERT1987 said:
Also, two of my supervisors at my old company decided to see how it felt to be defibrillated...needless to say that only one of them is still a supervisor, and only by the skin of his teeth...
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That's a rather shocking display is stupidity.
 
TCERT1987 said:
Also, two of my supervisors at my old company decided to see how it felt to be defibrillated...needless to say that only one of them is still a supervisor, and only by the skin of his teeth...
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what happaned to the other supervisor? :glare:
 
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