Legal Authority to Call Incident Command

Simusid

Forum Captain
336
0
16
We're a private non-profit 911 service. We are not affiliated w/ our town. We're dispatched by fire and are generally directed by the fire chief. Once in a while we have scenes that are appropriate for Incident Command. An example might be a 4 car accident on the highway, there might be 4 or more ambulances, a couple of engines, heavy rescue, state/local police. Our Chief is VERY proactive, meaning it is likely that he would be at every non trivial MVA, and if ICS was needed, he would and does call command.

We've essentially been directed that our service cannot call command. Some people say it's a control issue. It's taken as a given (by us) that we're qualified to call command. We've all taken the appropriate ICS training (100, 200, 700?) and it's part of our EMT Basic class too. So the consensus is that we think we *should* be able to call "command" if we're first on a bad scene.

I had the chance to talk very briefly to the chief about this and what I think he was saying was that because we are a private service, not a municipal service, that we do not have the legal authority to call command. I'm not trying to prove him wrong. If he says we can't call command then that is how it is. I was just surprised to hear there might be restrictions like that.

If you are a private service, are you allowed to call command?
 

DesertMedic66

Forum Troll
11,268
3,450
113
The first crew on scene will call incident command (I've been incident commander on a BLS ambulance that witnessed a TC). Then when a more seasoned (normally fire captain or fire chief) shows up on scene we hand over command to them.
 

NYMedic828

Forum Deputy Chief
2,094
3
36
In new york state, the law states that the first arriving highest medical unit on scene shall assume medical command until relieved by an equal or higher authority.
 

Remeber343

Forum Lieutenant
203
1
16
Why do you need to initiate command? I would bet they would be right behind you guys, instead do a good size up and triage then put airlift on standby if needed...?
 

usalsfyre

You have my stapler
4,319
108
63
Considering NIMS is built so that municipal, state, federal and private entities to work together it's horse puckey.

Micturation and sandboxes is all this boils down to. There's no restriction on using ICS I know of. I'm going to guess its a VFD or small (<25 member) department?

Last service was private, non-profit and I had ran command on certain incidents while there.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
OP
OP
S

Simusid

Forum Captain
336
0
16
Why do you need to initiate command? I would bet they would be right behind you guys, instead do a good size up and triage then put airlift on standby if needed...?

99% of the time we do not need to be the one that initiates. My question isn't really related to whether or not we should (I agree, we probably should not). My question is whether we have the legal authority to do so.
 

ffemt8978

Forum Vice-Principal
Community Leader
11,024
1,472
113
Considering NIMS is built so that municipal, state, federal and private entities to work together it's horse puckey.

Micturation and sandboxes is all this boils down to. There's no restriction on using ICS I know of. I'm going to guess its a VFD or small (<25 member) department?

Last service was private, non-profit and I had ran command on certain incidents while there.

The only thing that could be a problem is how the private's contract with the agency is written. Given that IC has the authority to request, commit, and direct other agencies resources once they fall under his jurisdiction, I could see where this could cause an issue.
 

DeepFreeze

Forum Lieutenant
150
2
18
I worked for a private that had a contract with a city fire department and we never called "command". I've worked with a city fire department and our contract ambulance never calls command, even if they roll up first. It really depends on the situation. In both NH and Mass, ems (and the IC system) is under direction of fire (unless its a police incident), so fire calls "command". EMS just waits by the IC and when additional help is needed or called they do so. So i guess it depends on your state.

If I were you guys, just have a meeting of the chiefs and discuss it before it becomes a you vs them thing and snowballs into something bigger. Ask them what they prefer, since you are working in their area as a private.
 

Bullets

Forum Knucklehead
1,600
222
63
NIMS directs that the first arriving unit hold IC until transferred to a high or more appropriate authority.

Should an EMS unit arrive on the scene of a traffic accident with multiple injuries, the EMS unit would hold IC. Unless there was a fire risk, EMS could continue to hold IC as it is a medical scene.

He is another caveat, if you are on scene with the fire chief at a MVC with injuries, even if he is the IC, unless he is a EMT or a Paramedic, all the patients are your responsibility and you can not leave unless everyone has been cared for
 

Shishkabob

Forum Chief
8,264
32
48
No law here stating who's in charge.

I worked at the same agency as usal, and whenever on a scene requiring some sort of 'command' it was expected the ambulance Paramedic would do it, and I, even as the youngest person there, was also the one in charge, running several kinds of scenes. It probably didn't hurt that most of the places we went to had volunteers as responders, therefor there was very little ego clash.


At my new agency, our protocols (shared by our local FD responders) state that in such cases, FD is 'in charge'. Whilst I don't agree with it (and it has caused several problems), that's what it is. However, without a doubt, the ambulance Paramedic is ALWAYS and FOREVER in charge of patient care, regardless of situation.


Whatever. Run the scene how you want. Call in all the engines you want. Surround the darn car with teddybears for all I care, but the moment it comes to touching a patient, I, as the Paramedic on scene, am in charge.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Chimpie

Site Administrator
Community Leader
6,368
812
113
Also keep in mind that incident command system (ICS) was designed so that there could be different commands for each activity. For example, you could have Fire Command, Medical Command, Law Command, all serving under the one Incident Commander.

Scenario: Kids were let out of school for recess and they all ran over to the box that had all the balls. Someone had planted a bomb inside causing it to explode upon opening. Seventeen kids were injured, a mixture of red, yellow and green.

This scenario would involve many agencies including law enforcement, fire and EMS. It would be expected that each activity would have it's own leader.

If your private EMS unit is the only EMS unit in play, or one of the first to arrive, it may make sense to initiate Medical Command, with the permission of Incident Command of course.
 

WestMetroMedic

Forum Lieutenant
128
29
28
One thing to keep in mind when you are dealing with the ICS, is that if you are assuming command, you are to have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with patient care and you are solely functioning in that role. At the point that you arrive and realize that there is a need for both patient care and the ICS, you need to be calling in additional units and your partner by default is now a triage officer. If you prefer to fall back to your natural instincts as a healthcare provider, which we all generally do, despite our best attempts, then you aren't going to initiate a successful ICS, and you will do more good by just advising what additional resources you need to make this incident function effectively.

You can expand the ICS as much as you like, but generally, Command and Triage are all you need to implement from a purely EMS standpoint. Fire generally gets incident command because they do it much more than EMS providers or LE agencies do, and they typically do a better job of it because they use it on nearly every call.
 

EMT John

Forum Crew Member
74
1
0
We're a private non-profit 911 service. We are not affiliated w/ our town. We're dispatched by fire and are generally directed by the fire chief. Once in a while we have scenes that are appropriate for Incident Command. An example might be a 4 car accident on the highway, there might be 4 or more ambulances, a couple of engines, heavy rescue, state/local police. Our Chief is VERY proactive, meaning it is likely that he would be at every non trivial MVA, and if ICS was needed, he would and does call command.

We've essentially been directed that our service cannot call command. Some people say it's a control issue. It's taken as a given (by us) that we're qualified to call command. We've all taken the appropriate ICS training (100, 200, 700?) and it's part of our EMT Basic class too. So the consensus is that we think we *should* be able to call "command" if we're first on a bad scene.

I had the chance to talk very briefly to the chief about this and what I think he was saying was that because we are a private service, not a municipal service, that we do not have the legal authority to call command. I'm not trying to prove him wrong. If he says we can't call command then that is how it is. I was just surprised to hear there might be restrictions like that.

If you are a private service, are you allowed to call command?


So when you show up om scene first are you not aloud to call for additional resources or cancel incoming units? that would be a incident command decision. Is this a "mother may I" thing or what? Is he saying that you cant just say to dispatch that your assuming command? sounds like a control issue.
 

mycrofft

Still crazy but elsewhere
11,322
48
48
To my meager knowledge there is no "legal basis" as to whomever sets up the initial ICS, but there have to be local organizations like EMSA or emergency management agencies. Anyway, as soon as higher authority arrives, the ICS turns it over.
 
Top