Judge rules family can't refuse chemo

[lightsandsirens5]

While i agree that you never know if the chemo would help until you give it a chance, and you cant get magically better without side effects, a child should have every right to give up as an adult has. I would agree that he was not capable of the decision had he been younger but a thirteen year old is old enough to understand life and death and cancer as an adult can.

Although there are parents who would not hav e their childs best interest at heart there is nothing to indicate that this is one of those cases. the government doesnt have to sit and watch the child suffer and die. the parents do. i am hard pressed to believe that an anonymous government agent will have the childs interest in mind...sometimes their best interest is to die peacefully without the agony of chemo.

Very well said. I totally agree that the child has the right to "give up" like an adult has. The big issue here is actually: does the state have the right to take over care of the child from the parents. I would say absolutly not. I am not going to say never, but in this case, no.

----------------

Someone also said words similar to this: that the beliefs of the child are just what he has been taught by the parents, that they are not really his/her own. Well of course! Where else do you learn a good chunk of your beliefs? And I can gauentee you that you either adopted your parent’s beliefs as your own, or you discarded them and developed your own. And at thirteen, while your belief system if far from fully developed, the main pieces are there and you are already starting to form your whole system.

It is easy for those of us who have never gone through chemo, or had a child who has, to sit back and call it murder to pull a child off chemo. I can't imagine the suffering that those people go through day after day, but I am sure that a thirteen year old mind actually going through it is able to comprehend it.

There are different beliefs out there! (Duh!) It is just as wrong to force your "conventional" medical beliefs on someone as it is for them to force their "non-conventional" ones on you. Just because it has been proven that chemo can help doesn’t mean the state or anyone else for that matter can force it on you. Shoot, "non-conventional" methods work also! They just don't have as high a success rate. But they do work sometimes. Just like chemo does work sometimes. What do we do if a patient refuses some form of treatment? Do we force it on them? No. They sign the paper and you go from there.

Personally I hate nosey government, and this case only deepens my suspicions. I'm not saying that we don't need government, but that we don't need a state where all our descions are made for us and other people’s agendas and beliefs are forced on us. It seems the people in this country that don't want others beliefs forced on them are the first to go and force their beliefs on others.

Ok, I stop talking in circles now.

 

[DrankTheKoolaid]

re

Vent i respect your opinion, but until there is documented proof of holistic, homeopathic or wtf else gods will curing cancer, documented in scientific studies that can be not only proven but with repeated success i'll change my opinion. Until then it's there to help as an adjunct to conventional therapy. period

As of now there isnt a single study of this stuff with enough "n" in it to convince me.

 

[daedalus]

So you are saying many hospitals in this country could be quilty of attempting to murder because they have decided to treat their patients by other means than chemo? I say attempting to murder because many patients can survive by other treatments. We do give patients options as they are available. Patients have the right to consult with other physicians for different opinions and treatment methods. When you work in an area that is multinational with many different cultures, religions and beliefts, the physcians and other healthcare providers must understand and respect this when at all possible. If they are not the best facility to provide care for that patient, they must realize this and refer to another. The case with Jehovah's Witnesses patient is a good example. For cardiac surgery they may not need blood products for surgery if they are taken to a facility that can do it minimally invasively or with a cell saver. Other facilities may not have this capability and will just want to press legal action against the patient. Egos may not allow them to refer to another facility.

Funny, after reading some of the responses here it is easy to see how difficult it was to convince some in EMS to give up the MAST or to incorporate new ideas. Medicine is constantly changing as new ways of doing things are discovered. Those that only have one recipe to offer a patient may be selling them short.

Read a little and see what is out there in the world of medicine.

This has nothing to do with EMS. The oncologist recommend chemo. S/he will have the best ability to determine the proper course Rx for the condition at hand.

 

[VentMedic]

Okay let's go with some of the conventional "beliefs".

Women are still convinced to have bilateral complete mastectomies propholatically.
Some doctors refuse to offer women alternative surgeries that would allow for reconstruction.
And, some of these radical surgeries do not remove all the cancer cells leaving the woman open for many more surgeries and treatments.

Cardiac surgery many not need to be open chest but some doctors will tell patients that is the only option and will not refer to a center that has other options.

Some trauma centers do not have a replantation team and will tell a patient the limb is gone and to get over it rather than transferring the patient and limb to a replantation center.

Some centers will tell patients they have no option but to accept blood products and will not discuss the options.

Some facilities will only offer ECMO which has its risks and some will offer Nitric Oxide and HFOV while others offer HFOV and Flolan or some other med. Some believe ECMO is the end all procedure or best treatment and some believe it is the "end". Should the doctor that believes ECMO is the superior treatment accuse another physician of murder if a child dies while getting Nitric Oxide and HFOV?

Now for lymphoma you do have other options to chemotherapy or at least the options may allow for a lower dose of chemo or shorter course.
Radiotherapy?
Monoclonal antibody therapy?
Bone marrow and stem cell transplants?

These are just a few examples that come to mind quickly because I saw examples of each just in one shift at work.

We could also go with the example of BLS vs ALS. Some of us in Florida believe it is almost criminal for places that clearly are capable of instituting ALS services to continue with BLS.

 

[VentMedic]

This has nothing to do with EMS. The oncologist recommend chemo. S/he will have the best ability to determine the proper course Rx for the condition at hand.

Read my above post. The beliefs of the onocologists may influence the treatment he/she offers. I am not necessarily talking about religious beliefs but rather literature interpretation. On another forum I posted almost 45 references for etomindate and there still was not a conclusive decision for the discussion. Recently on this forum, over 45 references were posted about the use of O2 and again there was not a decisive conclusion.

 

[daedalus]

Read my above post. The beliefs of the onocologists may influence the treatment he/she offers. I am not necessarily talking about religious beliefs but rather literature interpretation. On another forum I posted almost 45 references for etomindate and there still was not a conclusive decision for the discussion. Recently on this forum, over 45 references were posted about the use of O2 and again there was not a decisive conclusion.

I understand that. I am speaking purely of the insane beliefs of the parents, not the fact that there may be other options in treatment. If the parents were objecting to chemotherapy in a more aggressive form of cancer that was more likely to cause death, I would better understand their decision.

 

[VentMedic]

I understand that. I am speaking purely of the insane beliefs of the parents, not the fact that there may be other options in treatment. If the parents were objecting to chemotherapy in a more aggressive form of cancer that was more likely to cause death, I would better understand their decision.

But again, they had already given chemotherapy a try since the argument was for restarting the treatment. The judge probably was not at that child's side during and after each prior treatment to see why they may be looking for an alternative. It is probably the same thoughts that some providers think when they see some of the medical treatments we do to kids or adults. In the year 2009, you would think there would be a better alternative to a lot of things in medicine.

Slightly off topic but did anyone catch the Farrah Fawett TV show this past week about her journey with cancer over the past two years?

 

[VFFforpeople]

I have seen children go through this. Unfortunately the story doesn't tell everything about what this child has been through. But it does point out the the child didn't even finish the first round of chemo when his parents pulled him out stating " it was his decision" BS. A child that young doesn't and cant understand the ramifications of making a decision like this, and his parents decision to not complete the recommended treatment which the MD's state will give him a 90% chance should be criminal. This coming from a father who is following the direction of a witch doctor who has already served time for fraud related to the same advice.

And you know what this isnt about the parents feelings, and that is a very selfish thing to even say. This is about the child's life, screw the parents feelings.

I do agree though projected survival rates based on stage 1, 2, 3, 4 or even 5 for that matter can be quite a bit misleading and yes they could very well end up on a LTC with poor QOL.


And the bit about Jed just proves we need true separation of church and state.

I agree with vent..As for you I think you are ignorant in the fact of saying this 13yro Has no idea what can happen. Have you had to fight a battle of life and death to cancer? These kids know better than you and I ever will about whats going on. They are not regular 13yros. To think he doesnt know he can die is like saying you don't know how to breathe. This is where the EMS field hits the grey area..Where the "god" complexes come in..and say well we saved them, they are living. What do you consider living? pulse and on O2? It is so skewered that for a Judge and the state to walk in and say this is how it is going to be is a failure to the people they are supposed to serve. The judge has no PHD I am guessing in Medicine. I say let the 13yro pick, explain everything to them, Pros Cons, risks, and let him pick..This isnt our lives, we are not fighting cancer he is..maybe he should pick how his life goes. Being 13 doesnt mean he is dumb, just means he may not make it to 14 with or without chemo.

 

[VFFforpeople]

Vent i respect your opinion, but until there is documented proof of holistic, homeopathic or wtf else gods will curing cancer, documented in scientific studies that can be not only proven but with repeated success i'll change my opinion. Until then it's there to help as an adjunct to conventional therapy. period

As of now there isnt a single study of this stuff with enough "n" in it to convince me.

Seperation of church and state. How can the judge come in a say what is best if their "god" says it won't? What if he will be damned in the afterlife for this treatment? Can you argue that? No, you can't see it, either can I. So it is done off faith. The state has no right to tell me how to pray and what god I want to have faith in. Just like I dont have the right to tell them what god if any they should. So, to again put another persons beliefs down, because the are not you own, is absured. (I don't mean to seem like I am picking on you, you just brought up good points). So, say you damned that child to hell, did you help the child? or hurt the child? I have seen tests that chemo kills people, so why not go and look for something else. Really at this point you have nothing to lose so why not try a newer ideal. It isnt the judges life, not like the parents withheld all medical advice, I mean the could have locked their kid up and had him suffer, but they didn't. I see no need for CPS to be involved.

 

[DrankTheKoolaid]

re

Unfortunately this has turned into a religious argument which can never be won.

Yes this child get's his direction from his parents. And his parents are getting directions from a man who has been likened to James Jones. For you that are to young to remember James Jones, He also started by alienating his followers from conventional belief in not only medical views but also infrastructure and government, this turned into them forming a colony.

Then in 1978 at his command these zealot parents not only ingested their own poison, they fed their innocent children the same suicidal concoction. This all in the name of religion.

And now the mother has fled with the child...... yep that was a move of a completely sane person........ 1 weak mind at a time.....
But you know what it may be darwinism at work thinning the herd 1 weak mind at a time...... Survial of the fittest and the weak dont replicate

 

[DrankTheKoolaid]

re

You know it just dawned on me that many peoples arguments here has been it is his religous choice. No it's not his religous choice. His family all pratice/study/follow catholisism (sp), his parents found this this guy during an internet search for alternitive medicine.
Not only did the courts reject their argument that they are an established religon, the Bureau of Indian affairs denonced the guys claim that he is from a recognized tribe. So what religeous belief is he following?? (See post above) The catholics certainly dont think it's a sin to go through chemo and radiation, or there are ALOT of hypocritical sinners still alive.

 

[minneola24]

SLEEPY EYE, Minnesota (CNN) -- A 13-year-old Minnesota boy whose family has rejected chemotherapy to treat his cancer is with his mother near Los Angeles, California, and they may be planning to travel to Mexico, authorities said Wednesday.

CNN^

Okay so the mother left with the kid to go out of the country.

This is wrong, I mean if the kids survival rate was like 90% with chemo, he has got to have it. The kid can't think straight, I'm a kid and I know I can't think straight, let alone make life and death situations. The mom is really killing him and I was listening to an interview on AC 360 on CNN and the guy said that this is like the kid bleeding to death and the mom blocking the ambulance that would have taken him to the hospital.

This is murder, and its pretty disgusting that a mother would take her dying child out of the country to refuse medical treatment.

 

[daedalus]

I cannot wait for this monster to go to jail.

 

[VentMedic]

CNN^


This is murder, and its pretty disgusting that a mother would take her dying child out of the country to refuse medical treatment.

Did it ever occur to you that what we may consider as "alternative medicine" in this country is part of the standard of care in other countries?

Also, many of other countries' standards of care and medicines eventually make it to the U.S. to become part of our standard medical practices.

Many of us read the medical journals (not JEMS) to see what Canada and the European countries are up to in their advancements. It is sometimes hard to see the advancements made that we know won't make it to this country for many years. This includes both medications and technology. Maybe the U.S. as a whole is a murderer because it won't allow these advancements sooner.

And what about some of the practices in EMS? Not providing an adequate level of care to your community and not being able to do much more than race to the hospital with just some O2 on the patient because you can do no more at your level but watch the patient die should also be murder. This is especially true when some use their arguments just for they own egos and agenda rather than the standard of patient care. Improper EMS standards of care can kill alot more people.

I am surprised that some in EMS are so sure they know what is best for this child when they can not figure out what is the best medical practice for their own profession. All of a sudden everyone is an expert on cancer treatment.

 

[daedalus]

Did it ever occur to you that what we may consider as "alternative medicine" in this country is part of the standard of care in other countries?

Also, many of other countries' standards of care and medicines eventually make it to the U.S. to become part of our standard medical practices.

Many of us read the medical journals (not JEMS) to see what Canada and the European countries are up to in their advancements. It is sometimes hard to see the advancements made that we know won't make it to this country for many years. This includes both medications and technology. Maybe the U.S. as a whole is a murderer because it won't allow these advancements sooner.

And what about some of the practices in EMS? Not providing an adequate level of care to your community and not being able to do much more than race to the hospital with just some O2 on the patient because you can do no more at your level but watch the patient die should also be murder. This is especially true when some use their arguments just for they own egos and agenda rather than the standard of patient care. Improper EMS standards of care can kill alot more people.

I am surprised that some in EMS are so sure they know what is best for this child when they can not figure out what is the best medical practice for their own profession. All of a sudden everyone is an expert on cancer treatment.

Thats because we require proof of safety and effectiveness before treatments are allowed in the United States. While the FDA is certianly not without its blemishes, it was created to protect the American people. As the attending physician said, this boy had a 90 % chance of survival with chemotherapy, and close to zero with out. It all comes down to simple math, not a discussion of ethics or alternative medicine. Because most physicians embrace outcome based therapy, I am sure that some one by now would have told the family of other options that could leave the boy with a similar chance of survival. This kid is going to die because of his mother.

 

[VentMedic]

Because most physicians embrace outcome based therapy, I am sure that some one by now would have told the family of other options that could leave the boy with a similar chance of survival. This kid is going to die because of his mother.

There's also a chance he will die even with the chemo. For some it may also bring about death quicker depending on how their body deals with it.

The child already had one round of chemo. Until you have seen this or experienced it for yourself, you may not know what that child and his family went through during that time.

We also don't know what else happened to cause this family to seek out alternative medicine. What happened that may have shattered their confidence in traditional medicine?

Did the doctors and hospitals not support the child and his family during his medical treatments? Too often a script is written and a "call me" or one of my associates during office hours is tossed to the patient and little else. I would expect more from a children's hospital but that is not always the case. Once a patient and/or his family lose their faith and trust in the health care providers, it is difficult to establish that relationship again. Many of us have the choice of choosing other physicians but not everyone can due to their disease process with a limited amount of specialists or their insurance. Those of us that can may fire doctors just because we don't like the shoes they are wearing.

This is a very personal matter and those who want to condemn obviously have not had many difficult decisions to make in their own lives.

If you were diagnosed with cancer tomorrow would you put all of your options with just one therapy? Wouldn't you even be the least bit curious and surf the net to see what you other options might be?

 

[VFFforpeople]

The system is a joke, socialism at its finest. If the family wants alternative so be it, that is their choice. If he doesnt want to get better from chemo, and you force it on him, it will only make it worse. He will stop fighting and all you can do is sit back and watch him die. I just think it is funny, force someone to do something and it will make you better. It is like leading a horse to water and trying to make them drink. I see him getting weaker and sicker, and the court taking heat for forcing him into something he doesnt want..I hope the court does.

 

[daedalus]

There's also a chance he will die even with the chemo. For some it may also bring about death quicker depending on how their body deals with it.

The child already had one round of chemo. Until you have seen this or experienced it for yourself, you may not know what that child and his family went through during that time.

We also don't know what else happened to cause this family to seek out alternative medicine. What happened that may have shattered their confidence in traditional medicine?

Did the doctors and hospitals not support the child and his family during his medical treatments? Too often a script is written and a "call me" or one of my associates during office hours is tossed to the patient and little else. I would expect more from a children's hospital but that is not always the case. Once a patient and/or his family lose their faith and trust in the health care providers, it is difficult to establish that relationship again. Many of us have the choice of choosing other physicians but not everyone can due to their disease process with a limited amount of specialists or their insurance. Those of us that can may fire doctors just because we don't like the shoes they are wearing.

This is a very personal matter and those who want to condemn obviously have not had many difficult decisions to make in their own lives.

If you were diagnosed with cancer tomorrow would you put all of your options with just one therapy? Wouldn't you even be the least bit curious and surf the net to see what you other options might be?

I agree but I worry about the boy, being taken to Mexico, with a weakened immune system. There are better ways to handle this.

 

[VentMedic]

I agree but I worry about the boy, being taken to Mexico, with a weakened immune system. There are better ways to handle this.

Yes that could be a concern. There are other countries besides Mexico that do offer alternative treatments that might be an alternative to chemo.

Other countries also research their medicines and technology thoroughly. The U.S. is not the only country to do this. It is just that when it comes to the U.S., they start all over with the 5 - 10 year plan before release. By then, the treatment is almost outdated by the advancements in other countries. I could use some of the ventilator technology on the market, especially for babies, that we waited for 5 years to just begin trialing as we watched the positive results in other countries and continued to damage the lungs of infants here. Often we damaged them to death or to where they are now part of the trach and peg club.

BTW, did you watch the Farrah Fawcett documentary?

If not, I believe you can still download it from MSNBC Datline.