100% agree. I know that I need at that time working a high volume 911 job before even thinking about going to the flight. The CC program I was looking at wont even take your app unless you have been working for at least 3 years.
is being a CCP as good as being a RN?
- Thread starter goodgrief
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100% agree. I know that I need at that time working a high volume 911 job before even thinking about going to the flight. The CC program I was looking at wont even take your app unless you have been working for at least 3 years.
I agree with you on this as well, minus the bachleor degree part. I do think that for paramedics to move forward we must 1. require everyone to graduate from an accrediated school (Emt-B through Paramedics) and 2. paramedics must have an associates degree.
TransportJockey
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Thank you for the assist. And I knew there was at least one more place that was doing it, but I just couldn't remember where all they were. I also think I heard of at least one place in Alaska doing it too, which makes perfect sense due to the remoteness up there
TransportJockey
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I'm with you on this. I do think, however, that CCT medics and community health paramedics should be required to have the BS of Paramedicine, similar to most ICU RNs more and more being required to have a BSN (At least at my old hospital system and the others in that city)
abckidsmom
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And there are nursing schools out there worse than any medic mill you ever saw. Those people scare the snot out of me.
I disagree entirely. I think the extra level of billing comes from greediness, a desire to squeeze as much money as possible out of a blindly formulaic reimbursement system, so in a less corrupt world, this wouldn't be one of the downsides.
On the contrary, I believe that every patient deserves a NP. Or at least an old-fashioned primary care doctor who had time to know them, talk about *everything* and really provide primary care. If you have a good relationship with a (good) NP, you have that old fashioned primary care, because remember that most of those guys weren't really on the cutting edge of brilliance, medically speaking. They were busy doing their jobs, not always riding the wave of education.
I had a homebirth with a lay midwife last year. I completely understand.
This branching out results directly from the overadminstrationization of healthcare. (new word, how do you like it?) When nurses have to spend all day doing paperwork to justify a patient requiring a $800 hospital bed for which the hospital is going to actually recieve $500, there's no time for true nursing care.
In the ER, it looks like when the nurse is busy providing primary care to a 2 month old whose mom doesn't know how to feed him, she's missing the opportunity to provide direct care to the guy with chest pain in the next room, and needs a tech for that IV, labs and 12 lead.
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Associate's vs. Bachelor's
In regards to the associate's vs. bachelor's disussion, the issue is really quite complicated...
On one hand we have a majority of medics who have chosen to pursue EMS education via vocational means. This is nearly 100% of your firefighter paramedics. Most firefighters did not have an interest in EMS to begin with, but found it to be an unfortunate requirement of the job (I used to be one believe it or not!) So increasing the requirement to an Associate's at a minimum would see a huge drop off in ALS providers.
Again, I think for any professional paramedic, an Associate's is really the minimum entry level requirement. For the paramedic that wants to pursue a management track or even a program director position, there needs to be some sort of Bachelor's of Pre hospital emergency medical science or some such thing.
Once someone has completed a Bachelor's, options similar to that of nursing should be available at the graduate level. For example, offer a MSEd for EMS in addition to research and other options. At the graduate level I could envision there being a Paramedic Practitioner type degree, comparable to an PA or NP...
So there it is. We need a vocational route, professional route, Bachelor's options, and ultimately graduate level education specific to our profession.
It will not happen though. EMS tends to think that just because we are doing an acceptable job right now with the minimal education we have, that the system is not broken. I have had the privilege of working with paramedics from around the world, and while I will always say America produces outstanding medics, our educational requirements when compared to similar countries and even smaller countries, are absolutely embarassing.
This is ultimately why EMS will remain a vocation and not a profession in the USA. I want to change it though... And I will keep fighting for it!
In regards to the associate's vs. bachelor's disussion, the issue is really quite complicated...
On one hand we have a majority of medics who have chosen to pursue EMS education via vocational means. This is nearly 100% of your firefighter paramedics. Most firefighters did not have an interest in EMS to begin with, but found it to be an unfortunate requirement of the job (I used to be one believe it or not!) So increasing the requirement to an Associate's at a minimum would see a huge drop off in ALS providers.
Again, I think for any professional paramedic, an Associate's is really the minimum entry level requirement. For the paramedic that wants to pursue a management track or even a program director position, there needs to be some sort of Bachelor's of Pre hospital emergency medical science or some such thing.
Once someone has completed a Bachelor's, options similar to that of nursing should be available at the graduate level. For example, offer a MSEd for EMS in addition to research and other options. At the graduate level I could envision there being a Paramedic Practitioner type degree, comparable to an PA or NP...
So there it is. We need a vocational route, professional route, Bachelor's options, and ultimately graduate level education specific to our profession.
It will not happen though. EMS tends to think that just because we are doing an acceptable job right now with the minimal education we have, that the system is not broken. I have had the privilege of working with paramedics from around the world, and while I will always say America produces outstanding medics, our educational requirements when compared to similar countries and even smaller countries, are absolutely embarassing.
This is ultimately why EMS will remain a vocation and not a profession in the USA. I want to change it though... And I will keep fighting for it!
bstone
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Get your medic, RT and RN. You'll be amazing.
Shishkabob
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People put way too much weight on accreditation in it's current state. Think about it... is a CAAS agency instantly better than a non-CAAS agency?
medichopeful
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Shishkabob
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Nah, skills matter a bit. A Paramedic relegated to acting in the capacity of an EMT is not much more useful than an EMT.
Knowledge is good, the ability to use said knowledge it better.
Knowledge is good, the ability to use said knowledge it better.
JPINFV
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Knowledge without power is impotent, power without knowledge is dangerous.
Shishkabob
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Depends on what we're talking about here, though.
Do you think Paramedics in our current form lack the knowledge required to do a needle thoracostomy?
Yet, even if a Paramedic somehow forgets bronchi vs bronchiole, I'd rather have them there with the ability to do one rather than an EMT not when one is called for. (So long as the medic knows to do it above the rib and not below....)
Do you think Paramedics in our current form lack the knowledge required to do a needle thoracostomy?
Yet, even if a Paramedic somehow forgets bronchi vs bronchiole, I'd rather have them there with the ability to do one rather than an EMT not when one is called for. (So long as the medic knows to do it above the rib and not below....)
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JPINFV
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Knowing when and when not to do it is what's important. Heck, it can be taught in about a minute.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDRTzmuwMnQ#t=1m18s
Does this mean that since an EMT can be taught how to do the procedure that we should allow EMTs to do it?
Shishkabob
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That was neither the issue at hand nor the argument being made.
The issue at hand is that I hate when people say "skills mean nothing" or "skills mean very little". Correct, we probably shouldnt have the interventions that we can't justify through science and education, but again, skills have a place. Are they "what we do", or can they define us as a profession? No. But without interventional skills, the role of EMS might as well go back to the days we were in Hearses as that'd be about as useful as we'd be.
"Oh look, you have an allergic reaction. Well, we should get moving, because we have a 15 minute drive to the hospital and there's no reason to stay here since I can't give you any drugs"
Education needs to match, or exceed, the skill. But the skills have a place.
PS-- I sure as hell hope 99.9% of Medics don't go "Hmm, he can't breath, so let's just pop a needle into his chest!" on every SOB call.
The issue at hand is that I hate when people say "skills mean nothing" or "skills mean very little". Correct, we probably shouldnt have the interventions that we can't justify through science and education, but again, skills have a place. Are they "what we do", or can they define us as a profession? No. But without interventional skills, the role of EMS might as well go back to the days we were in Hearses as that'd be about as useful as we'd be.
"Oh look, you have an allergic reaction. Well, we should get moving, because we have a 15 minute drive to the hospital and there's no reason to stay here since I can't give you any drugs"
Education needs to match, or exceed, the skill. But the skills have a place.
PS-- I sure as hell hope 99.9% of Medics don't go "Hmm, he can't breath, so let's just pop a needle into his chest!" on every SOB call.
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JPINFV
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Two things. First, for some reason I thought you were talking about needle crics, not needle thoracostomys, but that's honestly neither here nor there.
Second, I never discussed what level of education was required. Yes, I think most EMS providers in the US are under educated for what they're required to do, but I didn't name any specific procedure. I was simply commenting that knowledge and power go hand in hand and that one without the other is not a good situation. What I don't like about discussing "skills" is that it distills down patient care into several individual actions. Skills themselves are important, but much less important than the overall concept of interventions and the goal that you're working for.
To me, using a car analogy, skills are the specific act of turning a wheel, pressing the break, pressing the gas (EMS equilivant of starting an IV. Squeezing a BVM, etc). The concept that you have to put those together to move along a road is like an intervention (I'm going to start an IV and push specifically ___ medication, I'm going to head tilt/chin lift, use a C/E grip, and squeeze a BVM, etc). Finally, deciding where you're going and how you're getting there is the goal. In EMS, this is the diagnosis and care plan. I'm pushing ____ medication because the patient is suffering from ____.
All three are important, and you can't get to the goal without mastery of the individual skills, but the individual skills aren't important without understanding how they fit together to form interventions and treat diagnosis.
Second, I never discussed what level of education was required. Yes, I think most EMS providers in the US are under educated for what they're required to do, but I didn't name any specific procedure. I was simply commenting that knowledge and power go hand in hand and that one without the other is not a good situation. What I don't like about discussing "skills" is that it distills down patient care into several individual actions. Skills themselves are important, but much less important than the overall concept of interventions and the goal that you're working for.
To me, using a car analogy, skills are the specific act of turning a wheel, pressing the break, pressing the gas (EMS equilivant of starting an IV. Squeezing a BVM, etc). The concept that you have to put those together to move along a road is like an intervention (I'm going to start an IV and push specifically ___ medication, I'm going to head tilt/chin lift, use a C/E grip, and squeeze a BVM, etc). Finally, deciding where you're going and how you're getting there is the goal. In EMS, this is the diagnosis and care plan. I'm pushing ____ medication because the patient is suffering from ____.
All three are important, and you can't get to the goal without mastery of the individual skills, but the individual skills aren't important without understanding how they fit together to form interventions and treat diagnosis.
Shishkabob
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Totally in agreement.
It's 2am... misreading happens.
It's 2am... misreading happens.
8jimi8
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The problem is physicians spend on average 30 seconds of face time with each patient. If physicians could spend more time doing the education, you would see an increase in compliance. The reason RNs are branching out is because there is a demand and a void that is being filled.
You'll note NP client satisfaction ratings? Merely coming from spending time with the patient. I know you are busy. Slow down and you'll see clients returning appropriately.
8jimi8
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And back to the title of the thread.
During the EMS expo, i took the Critical Care Paramedic Certification Review course.
I was already familiar with all of the "critical care" concepts that they taught in the review exam. EXCEPT for the flight physiology / flight safety concepts. I learned all of this information from my 2 weeks in nursing school where they covered critical care.
So no, being a critical care paramedic does not equal an ICU nurse. Critical care paramedics are being tested over basic nursing school curriculum. (rather the curriculum i just studied last month was NOT much more than I learned in nursing school, and certainly did not cover the breadth and depth of what I learned in the 6 week "ICU class" that I took when I started working as an RN.
No offense to any current professionals. I'm not saying I know more than you or have had better or more experience, only that the education that I have seen as an RN was quite more in depth than what I've seen in my EMS studies. Who knows, maybe medic school will amaze me, i'll know next semester.
During the EMS expo, i took the Critical Care Paramedic Certification Review course.
I was already familiar with all of the "critical care" concepts that they taught in the review exam. EXCEPT for the flight physiology / flight safety concepts. I learned all of this information from my 2 weeks in nursing school where they covered critical care.
So no, being a critical care paramedic does not equal an ICU nurse. Critical care paramedics are being tested over basic nursing school curriculum. (rather the curriculum i just studied last month was NOT much more than I learned in nursing school, and certainly did not cover the breadth and depth of what I learned in the 6 week "ICU class" that I took when I started working as an RN.
No offense to any current professionals. I'm not saying I know more than you or have had better or more experience, only that the education that I have seen as an RN was quite more in depth than what I've seen in my EMS studies. Who knows, maybe medic school will amaze me, i'll know next semester.