In Mass Attacks, New Advice Lets Medics Rush In

mycrofft said:
Let's send in doctors. The injuries are the worst, so let's send in doctors.

(Yeah, that'll happen... with a MAW behind them maybe!).

The occurrence of such incidents in any one area is rarer than rare. How do you justify the changes in manpower, training, equipment, firearm certification, ID checks and ID badges through law enforcement, to arm and qualify EMS workers for this? Like all-out preparing for an earthquake in Nebraska.
Click to expand...

Because, unfortunately, these incidents are becoming more common. The medicine is constantly changing clouding ing the threats and situations we have to deal with. That's the "we've always done it this way and it works alright" attitude. The same attitude we attempt to dissuade on a daily basis.

I'm not saying you have to have EMS units with tricked out tactical gear and monthly trainings. A plate carrier, helmet and maybe knee pads and elbow pads if you're really nice and once a year training with LE as part of your required annual skills recertification.

There's no need for doctors in a environment as this. The goal of medicine under threat is to stop life threatening hemorrhage and get off the "X". You're not cracking chests or placing chest tubes. You're placing a TQ while you hold a pressure point with your knee then placing an NPA if needed and moving to a casualty collection point where they may receive a little more treatment but ultimately evaced to a transport unit.
 
Robb said:
Hell how many people went to the hospital by squad car in Aurora?
Click to expand...

Unfortunately most of that was due to the #1 problems in these situations: Poor Communications.

FD/EMS were sitting in the parking lot waiting for patients, and officers on scene were not aware they were on scene at all.

Changes in tactics released in these types of documents don't mean jack when LEO's and medical responders are still following separate playbooks. Which I'd believe is still the case in the vast majority of regions across the US. Even when that's not the case, theory and practice generally don't mash. Agencies set up separate staging areas and command posts, it's just their default response.

It's also important to point out how extreme that article makes everything seem, the actual recommendations are much tamer. You aren't rushing into danger, you're moving into a secured warm zone with appropriate equipment and security... Basically little different from what has been encouraged before.

The Actual Guidelines: http://www.usfa.fema.gov/downloads/pdf/publications/active_shooter_guide.pdf
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Which is exactly why need cross-agency ICS training. As well as unifying the PD and EMS IC's and have them either coordinate face to face or over a common channel.
 
exodus said:
Which is exactly why need cross-agency ICS training. As well as unifying the PD and EMS IC's and have them either coordinate face to face or over a common channel.
Click to expand...

The problem is PD still really has little to no concept of NIMS and ICS. The USFA and FEMA seem to forget that LEO's aren't being taught it... I just took a quick survey among the LEO's on duty here, and none have ever taken a NIMS class or have been introduced to it. That includes veterans and guys less than a year out their academy.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
mycrofft said:
Let's send in doctors. The injuries are the worst, so let's send in doctors.

(Yeah, that'll happen... with a MAW behind them maybe!).

The occurrence of such incidents in any one area is rarer than rare. How do you justify the changes in manpower, training, equipment, firearm certification, ID checks and ID badges through law enforcement, to arm and qualify EMS workers for this? Like all-out preparing for an earthquake in Nebraska.
Click to expand...
What the hell are you talking about?
 
EMDispatch-

That comes down to a training and prio coordination issue. Even if departments DON'T do something like this, EMS, fire, and police should still be training together, or at the very least have shared their plans between themselves for what their responses will be during a MCI, let alone an active shooter situation. In a situation where all groups are working at the same time, everybody has to work together, and the only way to ensure that is to plan for it, and practice.

EMS can cry about the dirty nasty fireman, but it won't change the fact that at an MCI they will be needed, either to move patients, assist with care, or mitigate the hazards so treatement can be started.

Fire can cry about the mean police ignoring safety issue, but it won't change the fact that at an MCI they will be needed to secure the scene, and control the location.

Police can cry about EMS and fire not knowing what the hell is going on...and they'd be right if we don't start changing things up a bit.
 
I'm very hesitant about this. I'm a decorated combat medic, and even with a weapon, I was still in a great deal of danger, let's get real, while my training says "protect yourself before the patient", If I'm working on a life-saving procedure, the chances of me having time to stop, grab my weapon from the holster, and get a solid aim, before the gunner shoots, is very small. "WAIT WAIT, TIME OUT! I NEED TO DEFEND MYSELF!!!" Sorry, it doesn't work.
I've seen before combat medics get a shot to the c-spine, and that ended it, and I've seen combat medics get shot in the back, hit the Aorta, and liver. How the hell would you expect anyone to pull through that? Even with a vest on, all it takes is a good angle, from a good distance, and the vest will do nothing, OR, multiple shots fired in the same general area, and the vest is shattered. Both of those are hard, but possible if the shooter is trained somewhat well.

For those of you who's first thoughts are paycheck vs safety, maybe you're in the wrong field. Yes, we deserve more pay, and yes, theoretically, we should get more, but let's get real that cannot be your first thought process in decision making that is this big.
 
triemal04 said:
EMDispatch-

That comes down to a training and prio coordination issue. Even if departments DON'T do something like this, EMS, fire, and police should still be training together, or at the very least have shared their plans between themselves for what their responses will be during a MCI, let alone an active shooter situation. In a situation where all groups are working at the same time, everybody has to work together, and the only way to ensure that is to plan for it, and practice.

EMS can cry about the dirty nasty fireman, but it won't change the fact that at an MCI they will be needed, either to move patients, assist with care, or mitigate the hazards so treatement can be started.

Fire can cry about the mean police ignoring safety issue, but it won't change the fact that at an MCI they will be needed to secure the scene, and control the location.

Police can cry about EMS and fire not knowing what the hell is going on...and they'd be right if we don't start changing things up a bit.
Click to expand...

Spoken like a true professional. VERY nicely said. Sibling rivalry is okay, but we need to get over ourselves in all situations, but especially an MCI.
 
triemal04 said:
What the hell are you talking about?
Click to expand...

"Let's send in doctors. The injuries are the worst, so let's send in doctors.

(Yeah, that'll happen... with a MAW behind them maybe!). (A tongue in cheek reference to Dr Jadick's action in Fallujah* where they moved the ROLE 2 right into the hot zone, but with a whole gang of Marines attached, and a sarcastic reference to the need to push advanced care into danger in an American urban or suburban setting).

The occurrence of such incidents in any one area is rarer than rare. How do you justify the changes in manpower, training, equipment, firearm certification, ID checks and ID badges through law enforcement, to arm and qualify EMS workers for this? Like all-out preparing for an earthquake in Nebraska." ( The reference is to the fact that while tv shows and movies and the news blow these things up, the relative lack of frequency means it doesn't make sense to go creating another tactical force or trying to train and equip everyone for this sort of role when the #1 run is probably picking Grandma or Grandpa up after they've fallen down and can't get up.)

That's what the hell it's about.:cool:


*And what the hell THAT was about is a book called "On Call In Hell", probably needs to be required reading before people get all ready to "get tactical".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Jadick

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/on-call-in-hell-cdr-richard-jadick/1101075962?ean=9780451220530
 
mycrofft said:
The occurrence of such incidents in any one area is rarer than rare. How do you justify the changes in manpower, training, equipment, firearm certification, ID checks and ID badges through law enforcement, to arm and qualify EMS workers for this? Like all-out preparing for an earthquake in Nebraska." ( The reference is to the fact that while tv shows and movies and the news blow these things up, the relative lack of frequency means it doesn't make sense to go creating another tactical force or trying to train and equip everyone for this sort of role when the #1 run is probably picking Grandma or Grandpa up after they've fallen down and can't get up.)
Click to expand...
What the hell are you talking about? I can't seem to see what any of that quote is in reference to.
 
Okay, I have to add this to the thread because I'm not sure how much this has been discussed/thought about.

Last night I was watching CNN's coverage of the anniversary of the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting. Although the interviews with parents and families were heartbreaking that's not what really got to me. At one point they showed footage of a group of police officers sprinting as fast as they could into the school. It almost brought me to tears thinking about what it must have been like showing up on scene and knowing little kids need help, but being unable to do much.

I'm not sure about you, but if I were one of the medics staged there, I think it would have taken an unreal amount of self control to keep from running through the doors with my jump bag to get to those kids. Yes, I was not there. No, I cannot be sure how I would have reacted in a situation like that. But, I am a human being and the thought of little children bleeding out while I sat on my :censored: would be unbearable. I would WANT to go in with the officers, and have the tools to do so as safely as I could.

I completely agree that we are not heroes. We are too underpaid for that. But we are humans, and if you are in this profession you probably have some desire to help people who cannot help themselves.

Maybe we need to pause and think about it from this angle for a moment. What if you WANTED to go in, but couldn't. Yea...call me cold but an office shooting can wait to be secured by police before I go in. But children at a school? I think that is the one exception where I would be willing to take on a greater risk and go in.

I have a super soft spot for kids, so admittedly my judgement here might not be the best. But I think I would at least like a plate carrier and the option to go in.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top