I can't beleive this happened.....
- Thread starter MikeRi24
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No, he died because your Paramedic was lazy and failed to provide any level of care. Unless I have a veteran patient that demands transport to the VA, then it does not exist as an option for any patient requiring transport to an ER. I am so sorry that your educational experience had to be ruined my an incompetent moron. Hopefully your next shift will be more fulfilling. But at least now you know what not to do...............
Good luck to you!
Yo Mr. Conspiracy, see I can be sincere and nice at the same time!!!!!
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt although my first thoughts were that this thread was intended to bash the VA and/or their nurses.
TheDoll
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the guys neighbors or whoever they were DID demand he to go to the VA cuz i guess thats where he goes for medical stuff....there are much better EDs to go to for cardiacs in our area that are within a few minutes though.
now that I think about it, something else that the medic told me at one point kind of strikes me as odd: "some paramedics will get a line and push drugs just because they can, I dont usually unless I feel that its necessary to..." I wanted to be like "no, you push drugs because the patient NEEDS it, just just because you can, or not because you don't feel like it!" but i just kept my mouth shut on that one because it's not my place to say stuff like that to a medic.
If it wasn't a VA hospital I wouldn't really disagree with the medic's decision. Yeah, the pt goes there for all his medical stuff, but that doesn't mean anything when he is in cardiac arrest. I don't think my primary care physician would be too excited if my family made the EMTs drop me off at his office.
If you were that close to a regular hospital, I wouldn't necessarily see the problem. If the time it takes to start ALS interventions is more than the transport time, I don't think there is any reason not to scoop and screw. I was actually at an arrest a few weeks ago, and we were literally less than 30 seconds away from the nearest ED, yet the medics started all their interventions. By the time they punched the bag and started the line, the patient could have already been in a bed. And although hospital entry notes are (at least around here) simply a courtesy, one really should be given.
If you were that close to a regular hospital, I wouldn't necessarily see the problem. If the time it takes to start ALS interventions is more than the transport time, I don't think there is any reason not to scoop and screw. I was actually at an arrest a few weeks ago, and we were literally less than 30 seconds away from the nearest ED, yet the medics started all their interventions. By the time they punched the bag and started the line, the patient could have already been in a bed. And although hospital entry notes are (at least around here) simply a courtesy, one really should be given.
Ridryder911
EMS Guru
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Nothing personal, but this in general.....
Thus the problem. EMT's attempting to second guess or presume they know what is better. This is the problem with EMS and its multiple levels. A person basically takes a first aid course, and then assumes and attempts to critique medical care. This would be similar for me attempting to scrutinize a neurosurgeon. Are you aware a patient has a better chance of survival in the prehospital setting than in the ED or hospital setting? This is not just saying but documented scientific proof...
Second, does a dead body really need a bed? For what reason? Consider this, the patient has a lower percentage of more advanced care (physicians usually terminate codes faster than Paramedics), and there is NO difference or treatment! As well, now with all that wisdom you provided the patients family will now receive an additional bill for transport, ED visit and calling a code .. usually about $2000-$5,000 for an ER visit to pronounce a body. Nice going folks! ...
This is why more and more emphasis of field termination is being pushed... there is no reason to transport a code without return of spontaneous circulation (ROSC).
R/r 911
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I agree with what you're saying, unfortunately that just isn't the way things go, at least not around here.
I know they have a better chance of survival in the field, and I know there really isn't anything else an ED can do for a code. But if the transport time is that low, why not just transport them? They have to get transported anyway. I should have been more specific though, because in the call I was talking about, the BLS unit that first responded actually waited for ALS from another company to show up, while the nearest hospital was around the corner.
Also, in this case, the patient was actually long dead. But, they're going to a hospital bed whether or not the medics start their interventions, and regardless of how dead they are (unless such things as rigor or lividity are present, which they weren't). The medics were essentially working on a patient they knew they had no chance of saving, because their protocol says to.
I wish field termination was allowed.
Ridryder911
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I do understand, some of the EMS I have worked at do not allow field termination for financial reasons (no transport- no billing). This is unfortunate for all, especially for the family and the EMS system. Many not care about the financial portion but an additional $5000 and a $14,000 funeral adds up quickly for most, especially if that person was the sole provider.
R/r 911
R/r 911
Meursault
Organic Mechanic
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im throwing the bs flag:
story just doesnt add up.
Quick, somebody get MedicPrincess!
I don't mind the didactic styles of our more... experienced members. I lurked the Firehouse forums as a student. There, no one has any authority and it's just one continuous pissing contest. Here, we have a few people that have been right often enough that they're respected and can get away with completely owning newer members.
Back on-topic now:
Rid, where did you get the studies for better survival in the prehospital setting? And is that surviving the code or to discharge? I've always heard, and it seems intuitively correct, that out-of-hospital codes have really poor survival to discharge. Looking at PubMed, that seems about right.
Ridryder911
EMS Guru
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Actually, the percentages come from the ACLS text as well as many documented resources (I believe I have posted this response on here before). Many describe that the cause maybe that patient may have a predisposition of being more ill prior to arrest, or may not be found or located in a timely manner.. or the point they have to admit is that field codes are more organized and performance level is better.
If I remember right, the percentages is based upon both discharge and morbidity rates. What would be interesting if field termination will not be included.
Face it, codes are not successful with < 6% over-all and the best of being 10%. Until, we can develop better precursor of arrest or prevent coronary disease we are fighting an endless battle.
R/r 911
If I remember right, the percentages is based upon both discharge and morbidity rates. What would be interesting if field termination will not be included.
Face it, codes are not successful with < 6% over-all and the best of being 10%. Until, we can develop better precursor of arrest or prevent coronary disease we are fighting an endless battle.
R/r 911
enjoynz
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This story takes me back to the very first cardiac arrest I attended, many years ago.
I was a volunteer for a hospital based ambulance service.
We get a call to a Bowling Green, pt had collapse. It was 3 minutes drive from the hospital. I was on duty with a EMT-I and EMT-B and and I was a First responder.
We get there to find CPR in progress by a person on scene. I hopped out and took over the CPR in the hope that the EMT-I was getting the Defib connected. It never happened! He decided as we were so close to the hospital, that we'd continue CPR, load and go!
He didn't even bother to find out what the pt's rhythm was.
I did the compressions and he bag masked on route.
But the other thing, that cause an even longer delay, was the driver tried to leave by a different route from the park and that exit had a chain across it, so we had to back track. (More time delay)!
The pt didn't make it, and I never got to find out what his rhythm was.
I know we don't save that many Cardiac arrests, but it would have been nice to have put in more effort at the time.
I found out later, that the pt had been a friend of the EMT-I.
So he may have panicked? I'll never know and will never forget that call!
Enjoynz
I was a volunteer for a hospital based ambulance service.
We get a call to a Bowling Green, pt had collapse. It was 3 minutes drive from the hospital. I was on duty with a EMT-I and EMT-B and and I was a First responder.
We get there to find CPR in progress by a person on scene. I hopped out and took over the CPR in the hope that the EMT-I was getting the Defib connected. It never happened! He decided as we were so close to the hospital, that we'd continue CPR, load and go!
He didn't even bother to find out what the pt's rhythm was.
I did the compressions and he bag masked on route.
But the other thing, that cause an even longer delay, was the driver tried to leave by a different route from the park and that exit had a chain across it, so we had to back track. (More time delay)!
The pt didn't make it, and I never got to find out what his rhythm was.
I know we don't save that many Cardiac arrests, but it would have been nice to have put in more effort at the time.
I found out later, that the pt had been a friend of the EMT-I.
So he may have panicked? I'll never know and will never forget that call!
Enjoynz
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OK... not to get too far off-topic, but how many of us can take EMERGENT patients to VA hospitals? In my part of PA, the VA is not considered a valid prehospital transport destination.
This post just seems funny. I've seen crappy VA ED care, and I've seen a**hole charge nurses at VA ED's try to refuse to provide care to patients that deteriorated during treatment at the VA hospital... but it always gets worked out.
This post just seems funny. I've seen crappy VA ED care, and I've seen a**hole charge nurses at VA ED's try to refuse to provide care to patients that deteriorated during treatment at the VA hospital... but it always gets worked out.
BossyCow
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We considered ourselves lucky because the VA finally, after years of whining, complaining and denying has set up a local clinic where someone can be determined to be in need of emergent care which will allow them to get treatment here instead of a 3 hour ambulance ride to the nearest VA hospital.
I gotta call B.S on the original post as well. Too many inconsistancies. I think the ride-along heard a good story, believed it and passed it on as true, that is the birth of an urban legend.
As to the comment about what killed the guy, the VA nurse, the medic or a piss poor system for managing cardiac arrest, I'm going to weigh in on Heart Disease as being what killed the guy. Everything else is designed to offset the results of eating a high fat/sugar diet, smoking, drinking, genetics, no exercise, and a general lack of active participation in his own health.
I gotta call B.S on the original post as well. Too many inconsistancies. I think the ride-along heard a good story, believed it and passed it on as true, that is the birth of an urban legend.
As to the comment about what killed the guy, the VA nurse, the medic or a piss poor system for managing cardiac arrest, I'm going to weigh in on Heart Disease as being what killed the guy. Everything else is designed to offset the results of eating a high fat/sugar diet, smoking, drinking, genetics, no exercise, and a general lack of active participation in his own health.
yeah we can take people there if they want to go there...we try really hard to get them to go elsewhere because you can pretty much be at any one of 5 FAR SUPERIOR hospitals within <10 min no matter where in the city you are
and if you guys want to think i am BSing, then fine but it really happened and I honestly have never seen that story posted elsewhere. This is the only EMS forum I am on, and have never even read that story before. kinda sucks I lost all creditability for myself on here from now on but oh well.
2 sides
Yes, I will agree.....although I was not there and I do not know the specifics of the call (downtime, etc...). ALS should always be initiated in the field. At the very least-intubation, defib if indicated, and first-line drugs.
I would lose my job if I walked in with a patient like that (lack of treatment). I know nothing about the paramedic in question, but it sounds like maybe he is a bit unsure of himself.
We all know that there are certain "reversible" interventions for PEA and asystole. Most of us have rarely seen them work. A few are in the field (hypoglycemia, tricyclic OD, narc OD, metabolic acidosis, hypoxia, etc...), and some of them are in the hospital. PE, MI, pericardial tamponade, etc...
I can understand the nurse's frustration with not being notified prior to arrival, which is a big no-no. Could she have been a bit more compassionate and professional? I think so.
Our local VA is notorious for not answering the radio. Always have a cellphone on hand.
I can see wrongdoing on both sides here. But you should
ALWAYS initiate ACLS prior to transport.
You will have a miserable and short career if you don't.
Now I'm stepping down from the podium.
Yes, I will agree.....although I was not there and I do not know the specifics of the call (downtime, etc...). ALS should always be initiated in the field. At the very least-intubation, defib if indicated, and first-line drugs.
I would lose my job if I walked in with a patient like that (lack of treatment). I know nothing about the paramedic in question, but it sounds like maybe he is a bit unsure of himself.
We all know that there are certain "reversible" interventions for PEA and asystole. Most of us have rarely seen them work. A few are in the field (hypoglycemia, tricyclic OD, narc OD, metabolic acidosis, hypoxia, etc...), and some of them are in the hospital. PE, MI, pericardial tamponade, etc...
I can understand the nurse's frustration with not being notified prior to arrival, which is a big no-no. Could she have been a bit more compassionate and professional? I think so.
Our local VA is notorious for not answering the radio. Always have a cellphone on hand.
I can see wrongdoing on both sides here. But you should
ALWAYS initiate ACLS prior to transport.
You will have a miserable and short career if you don't.
Now I'm stepping down from the podium.