Hypotensive dialysis transfer

Akula: is low body temp a particular flag for sepsis? I'd just have put that down as one more sign of shock. As a matter of fact, isn't septic shock considered distributive -- i.e. if anything shouldn't I expect to see HOT skin due to vasodilation?

I'm not Akula, but sepsis typically starts with hyperthermia (read fever) due to increased metabolism and the body's immune response to the pathogen. Later in sepsis, cardiac output begins to fall and the patient becomes "shocky" -- peripheral perfusion decreases and the patient can become cool to the touch.

In the differential for sepsis, look for a patient who is:

- Hyper- or hypothermic
- Altered mental status
- Tachypneic
- Tachycardic
- Elevated WBC (if available to you)

Hypotension is the hallmark finding in septic shock. You can have sepsis without the shock though... Again, look for the above signs.
 
Thanks guys.

Truth be told, although I can see the possibility of doing certain things differently, I'm not certain that I would do them, even in retrospect. This call ran on assessment, not treatment; for the latter the only thing I can imagine is maybe throwing her on oxygen sooner, perhaps by NRB. If the assessment had been there, I suppose I could have given glucose, but frankly I wouldn't have trusted her airway.

The biggest piece that was missing was the diabetic one. In one way or another I should have been able to confirm she was diabetic, or at least suspect it so strongly as to make no odds; with that knowledge, I could have probably demanded that either facility take a BG chem. Again, would my treatment have changed? Maybe, maybe not -- but the way I look at it, the goal should always be the best possible understanding of what's going on. At least that way you don't feel as dumb.

The main decisions here were decisions of transport. So the REAL choice I could have made differently would have been to grab her and burn diesel, either shortly after our arrival at dialysis, or shortly after arriving at the SNF. And I can easily see someone making those choices. But here again, I don't necessarily think I went the wrong way, given the information available. In a way I was able to dodge the issue, because the only really critical scenario on the table was the possibility of CVA, and as I mentioned, given the onset of symptoms 3+ hours before, the time for tPA had come and gone regardless. So with close monitoring I did not feel like we were at the level of danger where we couldn't take the time to keep the regular caregivers (you know, the folks who know her background, provide a higher level of care, and oh yeah, pay our bills) in the loop.

But like I said, it could have gone either way, and I wouldn't call anyone wrong for doing it differently.

Akula: is low body temp a particular flag for sepsis? I'd just have put that down as one more sign of shock. As a matter of fact, isn't septic shock considered distributive -- i.e. if anything shouldn't I expect to see HOT skin due to vasodilation?
The quick & dirty explanation: The elderly don't respond quite the same way we do to infection. They sometimes don't have the ability to increase their body temperature in an attempt to kill off infections like we do in our younger years. Throw in the fact that their limbs don't get the blood flow that they normally do get thanks to systemic vasodilation from sepsis, they can get cold pretty fast.

Your assessment showed something was wrong. The Dialysis staff said something was wrong. Even though the "window" for thrombolytics may have passed, she would still need to be seen at an ED instead of going initially to the SNF, where they also said something was wrong. Given the reports that she'd been that way since arrival 3+ hours ago at the clinic, I wouldn't have called a Stroke Alert, but she'd have been treated as if she was a stroke victim and as if she was in shock.

Aside from heading to the SNF to begin with, it sounds like you did OK. I would think that a call like this would be a good one to learn from.
 
I'm not Akula, but sepsis typically starts with hyperthermia (read fever) due to increased metabolism and the body's immune response to the pathogen. Later in sepsis, cardiac output begins to fall and the patient becomes "shocky" -- peripheral perfusion decreases and the patient can become cool to the touch.

In the differential for sepsis, look for a patient who is:

- Hyper- or hypothermic
- Altered mental status
- Tachypneic
- Tachycardic
- Elevated WBC (if available to you)

Hypotension is the hallmark finding in septic shock. You can have sepsis without the shock though... Again, look for the above signs.

Redcrossemt covered that part of things pretty well. The elderly sometimes can't or don't increase their body temp like younger people, so that puts them further behind the hypothermia curve... Once the sepsis progresses to a shock state, they can cool off really quickly.
 
Thanks again guys.

One other thought is that my assessment was significantly hindered by the unavailability of a manual BP. I don't think this was a personal failing; I tried it in the motionless rig with everything ideal and there just wasn't one to be had. Low BP, poor distal perfusion. But if there's a vital sign I would've liked to have been totally on top of this was it, so that made things much more difficult. Anyone have any suggestions for dealing with this kind of thing? Never thought I'd be wishing for a good old Lifepak with NIBP, but I don't have computerized ears...
 
Dealing with it in a dialysis patient is going to be different from dealing with it in a non dialysis patient.

With dialysis patients they may have old or "dead" fistulas and grafts in their arms that aren't used any more. Once an access has been declared unusable, doctors will sometimes allow for BPs to be taken on that arm again. So if the pt has a current access in their L arm, and an old access in their R arm you may end up doing their BP on their R arm. The locations of the vasculature may be different because of the fistula surgery so auscultating at the AC may not work. You can try finding where you can feel a pulse and auscultate over that, or palpate or auscultate over the radial pulse point.

You may also want to practice doing BPs on the wrist using the radial pulse, and on the distal calf using the posterior tibial pulse. These locations can also come in handy on patients with decorticate posturing, or patients with things like cerebral palsy who have severe contractures that make it difficult to access their upper arm.

In a patient like the one you had, she was elderly and hypotensive which both work against you. Also she is a diabetic, at if she is on dialysis chances are she may not have taken care of her diabetes as well as she could have. Chronic high sugars can cause damage to the blood vessels adding another potential complication to trying to do a BP on this patient.

In some cases you just may not be able to get a BP, even under perfect conditions.
 
It is clear she has altered mental status, I would ask her appropriate questions such as. Do you know your name? Where are you? What year is it? Who is President? then a simple math question like what is 2+2. Of course some elderly nursing home folks won't be able to do this simple math, but that is just what I do.

I would elicit a history from staff and try to find out what medications she was currently on. If not contraindications and these signs continue to point toward a CVA or TIA, I would administer 324mg chewable aspirin if patient can swallow if not I would just monitor and transport.

I wouldn't start fluids because I think that this is permissive hypotension and I will don't want to dislodge something or further aggravate the issue if this is a bleed. Administering aspirin should reduce platelet aggregation and keep more of these from popping up.

I would start a saline lock and flush, get the fluids ready and monitor in-route.
 
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It is clear she has altered mental status, I would ask her appropriate questions such as. Do you know your name? Where are you? What year is it? Who is President? then a simple math question like what is 2+2. Of course some elderly nursing home folks won't be able to do this simple math, but that is just what I do.

I would elicit a history from staff and try to find out what medications she was currently on. If not contraindications and these signs continue to point toward a CVA or TIA, I would administer 324mg chewable aspirin if patient can swallow if not I would just monitor and transport.

I wouldn't start fluids because I think that this is permissive hypotension and I will don't want to dislodge something or further aggravate the issue if this is a bleed. Administering aspirin should reduce platelet aggregation and keep more of these from popping up.

I would start a saline lock and flush, get the fluids ready and monitor in-route.
Permissive hypotension is something you'll find in Trauma, not so much in Medical. As a basic, your options are pretty narrow. Basically, provide O2 and either call ALS or provide transport to the nearest stroke center, depending upon your local protocols regarding transports.

As a medic, I'm going to be pursuing a few things. Here in Sacramento,though my options aren't much better, I'd probably be running several protocols on this patient. One flows right into the next. I'd run the "decreased sensorium" and "Shock" protocols simultaneously as low BGL can mimic CVA exactly and hypotension/shock can cause ALOC. Either way the large bore IV allows for admin of D50 and fluid as needed under either protocol. If the signs and symptoms of CVA persist, then I'll start following the CVA protocol. Either way, this patient needs to go to the ED, so transport as early as practicable.

Sacramento's protocols... leave much to be desired, but at least I can run multiple protocols as needed instead of being "forced" to follow a single one from the get-go.

Also, out here, <4 hours from onset of symptoms and +CPSS and a normal BGL = stroke alert.
 
I would elicit a history from staff and try to find out what medications she was currently on. If not contraindications and these signs continue to point toward a CVA or TIA, I would administer 324mg chewable aspirin if patient can swallow if not I would just monitor and transport.

Do you give aspirin for stroke symptoms in your system? How do you know it's not a hemorrhagic stroke without CT?

I wouldn't start fluids because I think that this is permissive hypotension and I will don't want to dislodge something or further aggravate the issue if this is a bleed.

In the ALS realm, we decided the patient had hypoglycemia, so we would want to give some amount of dextrose, and then reassess the stroke-like symptoms. With this patient, I bet most of the symptoms went away with correction of her hypoglycemia. The other problem was poor perfusion and cool extremities. If she continued to perfuse poorly after correction of her hypoglycemia, I would start careful fluid boluses. As I said before, AMS with hypothermia and tachycardia would raise my suspicions of sepsis... which definitely needs fluids.

Also, if it is a bleed with increased intracranial pressure, we need to consider that when figuring out what kind of Mean Arterial Pressure (MAP) we need to keep perfusing the brain. Cerebral perfusion pressure (CPP) = MAP - ICP. So, as the ICP goes up, we need to increase the MAP, or the brain will no longer be perfused (as well). The body typically regulates this well... which is why you often see high blood pressures with increased ICP. Even in trauma, we give more fluids/blood with increased ICP then we do without, to keep the MAP and therefore the CPP up. If you allow "permissive" hypotension in these patients, you may help to stop their bleeding, but their brain is sitting there without blood flow...
 
Do you give aspirin for stroke symptoms in your system? How do you know it's not a hemorrhagic stroke without CT?



In the ALS realm, we decided the patient had hypoglycemia, so we would want to give some amount of dextrose, and then reassess the stroke-like symptoms. With this patient, I bet most of the symptoms went away with correction of her hypoglycemia. The other problem was poor perfusion and cool extremities. If she continued to perfuse poorly after correction of her hypoglycemia, I would start careful fluid boluses. As I said before, AMS with hypothermia and tachycardia would raise my suspicions of sepsis... which definitely needs fluids.

Also, if it is a bleed with increased intracranial pressure, we need to consider that when figuring out what kind of Mean Arterial Pressure (MAP) we need to keep perfusing the brain. Cerebral perfusion pressure (CPP) = MAP - ICP. So, as the ICP goes up, we need to increase the MAP, or the brain will no longer be perfused (as well). The body typically regulates this well... which is why you often see high blood pressures with increased ICP. Even in trauma, we give more fluids/blood with increased ICP then we do without, to keep the MAP and therefore the CPP up. If you allow "permissive" hypotension in these patients, you may help to stop their bleeding, but their brain is sitting there without blood flow...

Well its a fine line I think. While I am still learning and not even a paramedic. Now that I think about it most strokes have high blood pressure associated with them and this scenario didn't. No we don't allow aspirin in stroke protocol, don't know why I put in there, sleepy ?? :wacko:

On any call though it is good to always think outside the box and not focus on one protocol. I definitely don't want to become a cookbook medic
 
Permissive hypotension is only a penetrating trauma thing at the moment, although I have had some interesting discussions with Ken Mattox and some other luminaries of the surgical scene, and it would not surprise me if research wasn't carried out into permissive hypotension in blunt trauma as well. It's all about controlled versus not-controlled bleeding and bleeding into some cavities from blunt trauma may not be controlled at all.

This doesn't apply to traumatic brain injury however, as redcross has pointed out it is all about ICP, CPP and also cerebral blood flow (CBF). You can have high pressure with low flow depending on what the vessels are doing in the head (which is why we aim for a narrow window of EtCO2 after RSI in TBI)

Sepsis (which is Systemic Inflammatory Response Syndrome [SIRS] in the presence of a known or strongly suspected pathogen) is a clinical diagnosis. If a patient has 2 or more of the following:
Temperature >38C or less than 36C,
Heart rate > 90,
Resp rate > 20 (or PaCO2 <32mmHg)
White cell count abnormalities (high, low or lots of band cells - not that we will know this in the field unless it is an IFT)

then they have SIRS. These figures are from the surviving sepsis campaign guidelines for early goal directed therapy, whcih I think was published in NEJM off the top of my head.

SIRS can occur from a wide range of things like infection from bacterai, viruses or fungi, burns, trauma, pancreatitis, all sorts of things. The most common cause though is infection, and urosepsis is the most common type (followed by chest infection/pneumonia) It is also the second biggest killer in hospital, and can be quite subtle and thus not always easy to pick, particularly (as has been pointed out) in the elderly and the immunosuppressed.

Severe sepsis is the above criteria, plus signs of systemic hypoperfusion, such as hypotension, oliguria, altered mental status or organ dysfunction.

Septic shock is the same criteria, unresponsive to fluid resuscitation.

SIRS/Sepsis is a very complex interplay between the inflammatory cascade and the complement system and much of it is poorly understood. It is not the pathogen that causes the problems per se, but rather the host response to the pathogen.

One of the key pathological features in sepsis is that of microvascular dysfunction and leaky capillaries. These patients lose an enormous amount of fluid to third spacing and require very aggressive fluid resuscitation to normalise perfusion (which is one of the first steps in treating them). They also start making very large amounts of very poor quality urine, so as well as relative loss through fluid shifts, they have absolute fluid loss from the kidneys as well. The microvascular dysfunction will also lead to cold, shut down peripheries and the characteristic mottling of the skin that is seen in sepsis.

Myocardial dysfunction is often occuring in these patients as well, with something (probably NO) depressing myocardial function (stunning the myocardium) which exacerbates the shock state. If they patient survives, this myocardial stunning resolves itself without any long term cardiac issues, hence the term stunning or hibernation that is used.

Now, just to be a little more tricky, there can be two different shock states seen in these patients. One, cold shock, is reasonably obvious, has been discussed and is also generally late and bad as I think akulahawk and redcross pointed out. However the patient may also have what is known as warm shock, whcih is where things get a little trickier in identifying what is going on. Warm shock is a hyperdynamic shock state: that is the cardiac output remains normal or even elevated, however due to hugely increased metabolic demand, perfusion remains inadequate. There is a mismatch between supply and demand so that even though supply is normal or even raised, demand still outstrips it, and the organs remain poorly perfused.

These patients can present warm or normothermic (particularly in the patients who cannot mount a good fever such as the old, young or immunosuppressed) with flushed skin, bounding pulses and possibly normal blood pressures. However you need to take a good look at the diastolic BP. A wide pulse pressure (low diastolic) may be a clue that the patient is on their way to cardiovascular collapse, cold shock, and the coroner.

Where I work treatment would be (depending on the cirumstances, distance to hospital so on and so forth): Supplemental O2, possibly intubation (RSI)depending on the patients condition (we want to ensure adequate O2 delivery, and we also want to minimize workload and O2 demand), large bore IV access; aggressive fluid resuscitation; inotropic support if fluid resus alone does not improve perfusion. If we start inotropes (epinepherine/norepinepherine) we will also give low dose IV steroids as adrenal insufficiency is very common in these patients and the fact that we need to give exagenous catecholamines suggests that the endogenous ones aren't working so good no more. We may also give a 3rd generation cephalasporin like cefataxine of ceftriaxone, particularly if we suspect meningococcal sepsis, however we would weigh up the need to identify the pathogen in hospital with the need to acheive bacteriostasis before hand. With meningiococcal sepsis it doesn't matter if we are on the doorstep of the hospital, they get the antibugs.

Right, that's my typing done for the next 4 months. Hope I haven't bored you all to tears :)
 
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