How are vollys viewed by paid EMT's?

DrParasite said:
honest answer? two days ago, around 8am, I was in Bergen county for a meeting with a non-EMS coworker of mine, at his office. Surprisingly, I saw the local ambulance parked across the street, lights on, and with 2 PD units. Apparently there was an emergency occurring next door.

of the 3 person crew, a girl was wearing shorts and flip flops, a guy was wearing khaki shorts, and the 3rd was wearing jeans. no uniform shirts, no polo shirts, I don't think they were even had any identifying attire. if they hadn't been running in and out of the ambulance, i wouldn't have even known they were EMTs. As an EMT, I was embarrassed. Although i will say, I have seen paid EMTs in the hospital looking just as bad, and once the person was so poorly dressed (wacker ems t-shirt, emt badge on chain around neck, etc), I filed a complaint with their supervisor.

Before someone accuses me of being a uniform nazi, I will stipulate that if you don't plan on being on a rig, you shouldn't be held to the same standard. So if you are at the station, or on assigned duty crew, you should be wearing uniform pants, a uniform shirt, and boots, and whatever else your agency has designated as your riding uniform.

If you are answering a scramble/3rd call, you should be wearing long pants, sneakers or (preferably) boots, and a shirt that identifies you as a member of the EMS agency, or jumpsuit/coveralls and proper footwear. I don't agree with delaying a response so a scramble crew can get changed into a proper uniform, especially with already having the inherent delay of having to respond to the station. it doesn't hurt to have a T-shirt/jobshirt/polo/uniform shirt in your locker, esp if you might be responding for that 3rd call.

BTW, shannon are you with Florence or westhampton fire/ems by any chance?
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Jumpsuits pretty much eliminate this problem even though there not the most stylish. They can be thrown on over anything.
 
DrParasite said:
Before someone accuses me of being a uniform nazi, I will stipulate that if you don't plan on being on a rig, you shouldn't be held to the same standard. So if you are at the station, or on assigned duty crew, you should be wearing uniform pants, a uniform shirt, and boots, and whatever else your agency has designated as your riding uniform.

If you are answering a scramble/3rd call, you should be wearing long pants, sneakers or (preferably) boots, and a shirt that identifies you as a member of the EMS agency, or jumpsuit/coveralls and proper footwear. I don't agree with delaying a response so a scramble crew can get changed into a proper uniform, especially with already having the inherent delay of having to respond to the station. it doesn't hurt to have a T-shirt/jobshirt/polo/uniform shirt in your locker, esp if you might be responding for that 3rd call.

BTW, shannon are you with Florence or westhampton fire/ems by any chance?
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That's not being a uniform nazi at all. Part of being a professional is looking the part, and I cannot stand when someone says "I'm volunteer, the fact that I am here is good enough." No it is not, we're all doing the same job and regardless of whether you are getting paid or not does not somehow make it acceptable to wear flip flops and shorts to a call. You work on ambulance, look the part. Where I live, the ambulance crew wears a town EMS shirt, navy pants, and black shoes or boots. Sure, there is a little more variation than a full time service, but point is that the crew is easily identifiable and looks professional. EMS uniforms, especially t-shirts, are not that uncomfortable and there is no reason why you cannot just wear it while you're on call.
 
In Virginia the majority of the state is volunteer and the career personnel mostly started as volunteer to receive their training. I think as a career paramedic the best attitude toward volunteers is one of mentoring and education. We were all there once thinking we knew everything we needed to know and we were actually clueless. At the time I started as a volunteer I would have really appreciated a career paramedic with 25 years experience with that attitude.
 
DrParasite said:
I could be mistaken, but aren't you a newbie EMT who used to volunteer? If I am wrong, I apologize in advance for my error.yeah, and many paid EMS agencies have calls stacked, so the caller might end up waiting 20-40 minutes for an ambulance. Not only that, but a paid agency might only have one ambulance, so any second call is an automatic request for mutual aid, while the volunteer squad can have 3 ambulances, and if the primary crew is on a job, they are paging out for another crew before requesting mutual aid. and if a volunteer squad needs mutual aid it's a sign the volunteers can't do their job, but paid agencies do it all the time. it's a HUGE double standard.and there are many many many times when ALS doesn't even respond when requested, or never makes it to the scene, or takes the long route so they get cancelled by the BLS. If ALS doesn't make it to the scene, oh well, BLS can just transport, but if BLS doesn't make it to the scene, well, the volunteer BLS has failed. or when a city like Plainfield has 2 ALS flycars in town, and only one BLS ambulance, so when 2 ALS emergencies occur, guess what happens? It's a double standard.

The truth is that the only difference between a full time paid EMT and a volunteer EMT is experience. a volunteer EMT might work 12 hours a week on an ambulance, while a paid EMT does 36 or 40. I know quite a few volunteer EMTs who could run circles around paid EMTs, and quite a few paid EMTs that I wouldn't let treat my worst enemy. Training is often identical, as both paid and volunteer EMTs take the same exact course.

The other secret is the majority of paid EMTs started our as volunteers. More often than not, they started a volunteers, got a paid job, and decided they were better than volunteers. I know of several EMTs who were volunteers in town, and then were offered paid jobs in the same town, and now they think they are better than the volunteer EMTs. I'm like "weren't you volunteers just 3 months ago???" And that doesn't even account for the paid EMTs who are still volunteers, sometimes even officers in their volunteer agencies.

Many paid EMTs look down on volunteers because "it's the cool thing to do." Everyone else does it, so i'm gonna jump on the bandwagon. They all drink the kool aid, spread the propoganda, and think that all volunteers are idiots, when the truth is many of their own personnel are just as bad. Yes, there are stupid volunteers, but there are some outstanding volunteer EMS professionals, some who run as many calls than their paid counterparts. And that's not even including the twohatters (and we won't even mention those FT paid EMTs who can't stand volunteers EMTs, but are active and proud volunteer firefighters). and then their are the full time paid EMTs who work for transport companies, don't know how to do an assessment, can't backboard someone, but they are paid EMTs, and as such, better than those horrible volunteers.
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I never was a vollie but I am fairly new to EMS, I see you refer to Plainfield which makes me think your North Jersey? I'm not familiar with up there, so maybe I don't see the same things you do.


I don't understand your point about going mutual aid, I have saw it needed as well as given at my squad and it worked out fine. It's EMS, making call volume unpredictable so its going to happen.

You say everyone jumps on the bandwagon hating volunteers, yet you go and talk down on paid transport EMT's.
 
I skipped the posts above.
My experience: most volly agencies become little political machines and tend to accrete a cohort of people who are willing to keep showing up no matter what, or who need their own little kingdom to rule. Each has its own culture, whether of excellence or not, or some degree in between. Paid ppeople may also not have a good personal knowledge of each volunteer group, so negative rumors will abound.
So, the answer is, "It depends".
 
shannonlovesth said:
You guys keep mentioning an issue with a uniforms and volunteers and them not being in it. I know at my station you don't get near the truck unless you have boots, ems pants, and proper shirt. Same goes many times for 3rd rig jobs/all calls. Is it really bad in some areas? If so is it okay if I ask what is the worse you guys have seen?
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The worst I have seen?

Volunteer firefighter on the scene of a working structure fire with a wife-beater, shorts, and no shoes doing everythig from shuttling equipment to holding the nozzle of an exterior line.

Right up untill we took him to the hospital.
 
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Veneficus said:
The worst I have seen?

Volunteer firefighter on the scene of a working structure fire with a wife-beater, shorts, and no shoes doing everythig from shuttling equipment to holding the nozzle of an exterior line.

Right up untill we took him to the hospital.
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Best post of the thread. Having been a volunteer for ten years in a very rural area in WA state I have my share of stories but that beats them all. One question I have to ask is what was the reason for transport?
 
Level1pedstech said:
Best post of the thread. Having been a volunteer for ten years in a very rural area in WA state I have my share of stories but that beats them all. One question I have to ask is what was the reason for transport?
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crushed his foot when the 10lbs of adapters and crap stuffed in the 5 lb engineer's compartment fell on it while he was trying to dig something out of the back.
 
Having had FF/EMT positions with two very different agencies over a ten year period let me give my thoughts on the subject.

Agency number one was your stereotypical rural agency. Members were all volunteer except for the chief, the mix was 75% fire and 25% medical. Minimum certification for medical personnel was first responder but most were basics,there were two EMT-I's and two medics. Majority of personnel responded to the closest station the remainder went POV.

Drills were held four times a month,the training for medical people was designed to make sure all members compleated the CE's required to recertify at their respective level. For fire people the training was designed to make sure skills were maintained at the level of IFSTA FF 1. One drill each month was a mixed drill which allowed fire and medical to cross train and learn how to work togeather. Members were welcome and encouraged to attend every drill but were only required to attend one a month. ALS care and transport was provided by a seperate agency.

Agency number two was a small combination municipal department consisting of full time,part time and volunteer personnel. Minimum certification for all was EMT-B and IFSTA FF 1. The staffing on our ALS assesment engines running 24/7/365 out of four stations was 1 paid Capt FF/Medic,1 paid or part time engineer,1 volunteer and 1 intern. Of course this mix could be different depending on staffing levels and engines sometimes would have to run BLS. We had two ALS transport units staffed with a medic provided by AMR and a part time EMT-IV Tech that was provided by the department. AMR also would respond if the medic unit was out of the area.

Training was designed to keep everyones skills at peak level and everyone was encouraged to advance as far as they could. If you were a volunteer on an engine you were expected to maintain your skills at the same level as your paid counterparts. I liked this concept because it tended to seperate out the Ricky Rescues and those that were only in it for the shirt.

Bottom line is that both agencies got the job done and were there when the call came in. The paid/volunteer rivalry will always be an issue but I believe most of those that offer thier time as volunteers have their act togeather and are able to get the job done.
 
The thread has been cleaned up and off topic posts have been removed. Keep it on topic and polite please.
 
jemt said:
I never was a vollie but I am fairly new to EMS, I see you refer to Plainfield which makes me think your North Jersey? I'm not familiar with up there, so maybe I don't see the same things you do.
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I started my paid EMS experience in Plainfield. boy was it an eye opener. Since then, I have worked in both central and north Jersey for more than 10 years.
jemt said:
I don't understand your point about going mutual aid, I have saw it needed as well as given at my squad and it worked out fine. It's EMS, making call volume unpredictable so its going to happen.
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you are the one who said volunteers always go 3rd and 4th request before getting a truck out. i just mentioned that paid agencies request m/a immediately, while if a volunteer agency did that, the paid agencies would consider that a failure to do their job.
jemt said:
You say everyone jumps on the bandwagon hating volunteers, yet you go and talk down on paid transport EMT's.
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Absolutely I do. I have yet to meet any good transport EMTs. No, wait, that's not true. The only good transport EMTs have 911 experience, and currently spend time on a 911 ambulance. I know a lot of great people who work doing transport EMS. great friends, great drinking buddies, and a lot of fun outside of work. But they typically have horrible EMT skills. Most of the good ones are working on getting a 911 job, or work FT in 911 jobs and do transport just for extra money. I'm not jumping on the bandwagon, I'm at the front leading the group.

Just because you are a volunteer, doesn't mean you can't be professional. And as Veneficus said, there can be some extremely embarrassing volunteers, but I would hope that an embarrassing extreme few do not represent the vast majority.
 
I see it a little better now, thanks guys!

as far as lights...here we are allowed to run with flashing blue, but it does NOT give us a right to disobey any traffic laws. They highly discourage this in our company, we are to run by the laws, and the light is used as a courtesy permission only.
 
Last I checked, my polo says EMS on it, not paid or volunteer.
Last I checked, being professional depends on the indivuals additude, not the bases of your employment.
Last I checked, pataint care is the number 1 priority, not whether I get paid or not.

Everything else is bull:censored::censored::censored::censored:, bad leadership or politics.
 
DrParasite said:
I started my paid EMS experience in Plainfield. boy was it an eye opener. Since then, I have worked in both central and north Jersey for more than 10 years.you are the one who said volunteers always go 3rd and 4th request before getting a truck out. i just mentioned that paid agencies request m/a immediately, while if a volunteer agency did that, the paid agencies would consider that a failure to do their job.
Absolutely I do. I have yet to meet any good transport EMTs. No, wait, that's not true. The only good transport EMTs have 911 experience, and currently spend time on a 911 ambulance. I know a lot of great people who work doing transport EMS. great friends, great drinking buddies, and a lot of fun outside of work. But they typically have horrible EMT skills. Most of the good ones are working on getting a 911 job, or work FT in 911 jobs and do transport just for extra money. I'm not jumping on the bandwagon, I'm at the front leading the group.

Just because you are a volunteer, doesn't mean you can't be professional. And as Veneficus said, there can be some extremely embarrassing volunteers, but I would hope that an embarrassing extreme few do not represent the vast majority.
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I would actually view it more professional if a vollie agency went mutual aid after second tones, not a failure.

On transport EMT's, I can agree alot are terrible at doing "EMS" but also alot work both 911 and transport, considering most jobs are within transport since that is where the money is running BLS.

Also just this weekend I was listening to a call unfold, a ALS box ambulance was on scene with a pt. waiting for the vollie agency to get out when the ALS unit requested permission to transport and was denied and told to wait for the BLS unit to arrive. At this point the vollie agency was at 4th tones.:wacko:

If I had it my way, all vollie agencies would have to go mutual aid after second tones.
 
we are lucky to have 4 ALS in our dept, so usually we are always running with at least one at all times
 
From my experience at 3 volley stations, volunteers are as good or bad as the system in place around them.

The main issue is staffing and the sticky issues of retention. I've been at a station where the EMTs were all very competent and many were paid or worked in a hospital, but the ambulance had about a 50% failure rate, and another where the EMTs ranged from good to barely able to handle a BLS sick person, but took 8 minutes or so to respond.

I think the main issue confronting volunteer EMS is that while you can fire or discipline a paid EMT, knowing you can hire another, you cannot do the same with a volunteer. With many volley agencies struggling to staff trucks or make calls, when you terminate or suspend a volunteer, you may lose a crucial responder. In the same way, you can make your paid staff attend training, wear uniforms, and clean the bathrooms, but enforcing the same on volunteers could result in a loss of membership thanks to the "I'm just a volunteer, you can't expect me to do that" excuse. This lack of discipline means that while you can have well motivated, competent responders, you can also have responders that want to play with flashing lights and don't want to know more then "apply O2, drive fast".

I've also found morale is much higher in staffed stations. Nothing is more disheartening then having a station that routinely fails to respond.
 
wow, some of these volunteer organizations sound horrible! From the sounds of it, we run a pretty good service. Take it seriously, safely, and training of all types are encouraged, and paid for. Our CC's take the time to teach us, both in and out of the field. We drill once a week. We rarely have a 2nd tone, but it does happen from time to time. when both our ambulances are out, we have a mutual aide on standby.always.
 
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