Highest Medical Training??

So if my flight nurse and I were to show up on your scene, you are saying she isn't "above you" on the hierchy of care? Even though she is a more educated and experienced pre-hospital provider than you? Even though she is part of a higher level of care that has been requested because you for whatever reason did not have the most appropriate capability to care for your patient? Am I perceiving what you are writing incorrectly?
I just want to say I am not sure on the below statement and am simply providing what I think. Maybe a flight medic or nurse can tell us the by the book answer.

Her(RN) education and experience have nothing to do with his(EMT-P) protocols. He is working as an extension of his M.D. and representing that M.D. under his protocols in the field. Even an off duty PA or LNP can not take over care from a Paramedic in the field. Only an M.D. can in most systems.
However a flight nurse is also an on duty pre-hospital care provider. She(or he) more than likely also follows some kind of protocols or guidelines set by the Medical director. I can bet you those guidelines and protocols state she as equal to or above the ground Paramedic, if I was to guess. The flight nurse on duty working in this capacity is more than likely above the paramedic or at least equal to I would think.

Also contra to what some have said EMS is somewhat Paramilitary.(a sloppy one) We like to think of ourselves as healthcare providers and most on this forum want to further EMS in that directions professionally, and I agree but... We are also emergency responders like police and fire. We follow orders from medical direction, we have to follow protocols, we have set grooming and uniform standards, we have C-FLOP and FEMA structures in place for large disasters. Many EMS systems that are municipal or fire based use ranks.
 
I'm not sure about most HEMS providers but the one here in town requires the nurse on board to obtain a paramedic license within a certain time after they are hired.

I do know that the HEMS here in town can administer colloids if needed as well as surgical airways and maybe a few other things not in the scope of a ground medic.

What i know for sure is that they all outrank me.
 
All the reputable healthcare providers I know will at least hear the argument of another (even lower level) before "pulling rank" just incase they over looked something or have limited exposure to it.

I think therein lies the problem. It seems most Ambulance Officers in your patch are somehow conditioned to think they are better than a nurse or a physician because they can stick in a drip or have to wear a uniform and go "do battle" in the street. Somehow thier flashy lights and Galls uniform and quicky education makes them superior. I am yet to find the exact cause.

It also interests me why some GPs and nurses almost seem to fear anything emergent and stand in the corner while the ambos work on the cardiac arrest in thier waiting room.

Now, if I am come across a cardiac chest pain at the mall and oh I don't know, a senior podiatry registrar or consultant ENT doc happens to offer a look-see who am I to discredit this and say to them "OK mate, we'll let you know if the patient develops corns or has tonsilitis"? They have more education in basic bioscience than my entire Ambulance education put together!
 
Yeah I would just assume they "out rank" the ground crew if you want to look at it that way. Most flight medics are required to have 3-5 years ALS 911 experience before HEMS will take them. I believe that most also receive additional training like the cc-emtp and also have an extended scope. The flight nurse I am sure is granted the same privileges as the flight medic, probably more. But I have no HEMS experience so I dont know for sure.

I was just trying to look at how it is in most protocols and systems
 
I think therein lies the problem. It seems most Ambulance Officers in your patch are somehow conditioned to think they are better than a nurse or a physician because they can stick in a drip or have to wear a uniform and go "do battle" in the street. Somehow thier flashy lights and Galls uniform and quicky education makes them superior. I am yet to find the exact cause.
Brown I do not think a lot of them think of themselves as "better" its just the way our system is set up. We all are required to have a medical director who is an ED M.D. Its his protocol book and licence that we work under. We are acting as an extension of him under the protocols he has established. That is why from a legal stand point no one other than another M.D. or Paramedic (probably on duty flight nurse also)can take over patient care pre-hospital.
 
The level of obsession over "pecking order" within healthcare amongst the various practitioners of it is quite simply nauseating.

In California, with the egos on the average citizen being leaps and bounds greater than the national average one can only imagine how it exponentially amplifies once one of them is granted some sort of medical license. I have to put up with this nonsense on a daily basis, and it makes me sick enough to want to leave the field and like, go raise chinchillas in Alaska or something.

Oddly it mostly comes from those of us in allied health and mid-level providers whereas the doctors are conspicuously quiet about it and have solved the problem (well, their problem) by having separate "physician rooms" away from others so the rest of us can be left to our own devices. Very conspicuous indeed.

The biggest culprits are RNs whose ravenously powerful licensing board has gotten them written into state law as the official gatekeeper of everything. It almost appears as if Nursing Order of Business goes as follows:

(1) Let everyone who isn't called "doctor" know I'm in charge.
(2) Everything else on the agenda.

I think this concern over "who's in charge" and this paramilitary structure of healthcare is entirely unhelpful and probably kills many people every year and really needs to be jettisoned for something else.

But anyway, as far as pre-hospital care goes, technically the paramedic was designed to be a "physician extender" (the level of success in the application of this concept is an entirely different matter) and, thus is in some abstract sense the "agent" of the Medical Director. With that in mind I think how we as paramedics should be concerned with conducting ourselves is like that of another consulting physician and not some haughty d-bag who thinks, "ZOMG I'M IN CHARGE HERE NO ONE CAN TELL ME WHAT TO DO ALL MUST BOW BEFORE ME!!"

So, no an RN is not a "higher medical authority" than a paramedic (or at least it wasn't designed to be), they're just another provider along some other spectrum of the healthcare continuum with different responsibilities and emphases in knowledge-base (mainly the maintenance of physiological states). As far as pre-hospital goes it really just goes MD/DO --> EMT-P and that's it - RNs, RTs, NPs, PAs, PTs, OTs, and everyone else have different responsibilities and operate in different spheres of healthcare praxis.

Whenever I respond somewhere where there's a physician present, I do my best to incorporate their input into what I want to do (unfortunately I'm constrained by retarded protocols, written in response to abysmal clinical practice by near-incompetent monkeys with medic patches so really I have to just ignore everything they tell me and do what the damn protocols says or I get annihilated). I try not to jump to any conclusions about the prowess of a given physician based on their specialty (dermatologists typically don't deal with acute emergencies, but I do know it's one of the most competitive residencies to get into) either.

Occasionally...well perhaps more than occasionally I have to respond to urgent care centers which are managed so incompetently that sometimes I think there ought to be some rule where if a patient with XYZ condition comes in, they are to do essentially nothing apart from call 911. Been burned way too many times on "urgent IFTs" that turned out to be nightmarish once I got there (e.g. "allergic reaction" that turned out to be anaphylaxis who was given 1 mg 1:1,000 epi rapid IV and now had refractory SVT on top of anaphylaxis; "nausea" that turned out to be a STEMI; "vertigo" that turned out to be a stroke; "dehydration" that turned out to be a shockingly hypotensive, septic patient; I could go on and on).

In short (too late I know). The system sucks. Big time. And I want a new one.
 
Personally I am not inclined to care who is "in charge of a scene" but as others have mentioned, it is our asses on the line so it is best to pay some attention. Generally I treat any RN or DR with a great deal of respect and deference as docs have tons of education and experience and most RNs I know are vastly more competent than most paramedics and EMTS I have personally worked with. I am sure this is not the case everywhere however.

In any event, in the prehospital setting, I usually only deal with them enough to get an initial report, perhaps with some suggestions I usually can't follow because of protocols and then the staff at the other end taking my report. Not too much conflict there. Maybe it will be different as a Medic.

Edit: Just to be clear, I meant I am not terribly emotional about who is in charge. If it is me I will do my best for the patient, if it is not me I will do my best to assist those who are.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
That is why from a legal stand point no one other than another M.D. or Paramedic (probably on duty flight nurse also)can take over patient care pre-hospital.

I thought the legal issue was physicians have an unrestricted license to practice medicine. PAs, NPs, EMTs, paramedics, etc do not have an unrestricted license to practice medicine.
 
I thought the legal issue was physicians have an unrestricted license to practice medicine. PAs, NPs, EMTs, paramedics, etc do not have an unrestricted lice
nse to practice medicine.
Yes... What are you saying? I am saying that is why we can not hand the patient over to someone else except another M.D. or a another paramedic on duty.
As stated above we are kind of an "agent" or extension of the medical director who is in charge of EMS. Its his(her) protocols and rules that we follow and represent in the field.
 
Also contra to what some have said EMS is somewhat Paramilitary.(a sloppy one)

I suggest that healthcare is not paramilitary. An EMS provider can have any title they want, but aside from an organizational standpoint, it hold little use.

As an example, a paramedic taking care of a patient, who is in charge of that patients care and the responsible party as such, (in other words the person signing their name to the PCR) cannot be order by the grand pubah paramedic of the agency to perform or deviate from standing medical orders. (aka protocols) without assuming care for that patient. (and signing his name to the PCR) You cannot be ordered to abandon a patient.

Now some agencies like to try and create an artificial seperation between the patient and the scene in order to boost their egos a little. A rescue is a about a patient, not a scene. A medical emergency is about a patient, not a scene. Once a victim or patient is removed from a scene, EMS has absolutely no place in it.

Having worked with both FDs and "paramilitary" 3rd services I can tell you that once patient care is initiated the "officer in charge of the scene" becomes a facilitator to the lead medic no matter how many patients are involved. In fact, in all the MCI literature I have seen, and in my first hand experience, it is often the first responding unit that determines how well an incident turns out. In most EMS systems that may mean paramedic joe shmoe who has no rank above field provider for the agency. While others can assume command after, they will never be able to redo the initial management. They cannot stop the incident and regroup, they can only carry on from where they were.

Once the hospital becomes involved or a significant out of hospital response involving prolonged field care, a paramedic of any rank becomes basically a tech. Even if they are the grand pubah. While physicians are "in charge" of patients, nursing operates on an almost seperate but equal term. That is why nursing has the very real ability to bring patient care to a grinding halt.


We like to think of ourselves as healthcare providers and most on this forum want to further EMS in that directions professionally, and I agree but... We are also emergency responders like police and fire.

I think this is a matter of great debate. I have not found a consensus on this matter. I think the future of EMS is as healthcare providers. I think EMS persons are not yet, and the more they become so, the less like police and fire they will be. We'd have to start a new thread to talk about it though. Not enough characters in this one.


We follow orders from medical direction, we have to follow protocols,

Exactly, and the medical director in that respect trumps all LTs, Captains, Chiefs, etc. Especially since said medical director can revoke the right of any of them to function as a medical provider on the spot.

Again, said officers cannot order you to perform above, beneath, or alter the scope of practice or standards of care. Most agencies o not allow the medical director to have input on organizational operation (like hiring and firing) but if you must be an EMT or paramedic to work at a specific FD and the medical director revokes your ability to practice he has essentially fired you.

we have set grooming and uniform standards, we have C-FLOP and FEMA structures in place for large disasters. Many EMS systems that are municipal or fire based use ranks.

So what?

Those FEMA plans are fantasy. Incorperated into them are local control. You think that once a major military response is effected that an Admiral or General (or even a Captain or Colonial) is going to take orders from a mayor or fire chief? That a fire or EMS captain will have authority over even a squad of troops?

The state plans are for issues that will not be getting a federal response. The stated plan when it gets to the federal level is "do your best and try to survive the first 48 hours if you are local." Then an assessment team will be sent. Which means days after before "support" will even show up. If you are lucky it will be stuff that you think you need. More than likely it will be the material and logistics for longterm mitigation, not what keeps the local fire and EMS departments function in non disaster conditions.

IN the absense of the ability to communicate with all providers, or even reach them, how do suppose anyone would have effective command?

How will they coordinate with or resupply them?

Sure the local authorities may get to sit in the command center and give their input, but their operational control is going to be extremely small. Other agencies and providers including physicians and hospitals will fall into support roles to the major effort. Not to mention most healthcare facilities do not have a way to mandate providers during a disaster, they rely on their willful participation and cooperation. Even if they do, the most they could do is fire them after with a poor reference.

FEMA as an organization is a day late and a dollar short. It will continue to be, just by the nature in which it functions.
 
Its his(her) protocols and rules that we follow and represent in the field.

Outside of the top levels of health care (i.e. physicians, dentists, psychologists, podiatrists, physical therapists in some cases, etc), providers like paramedics RNs, RTs, etc require medical orders to provide care. These orders could be standing orders (like protocols) or what have you, but they still require orders (so the cliche of how paramedics and EMTs are above RNs because we don't need "orders" to give oxygen is patently false, we do need orders). Physicians with an unrestricted license don't require orders to provide care. Hence why an "off duty" physician is fundamentally different than an off duty RN, EMT, or paramedic. A physician doesn't lose his legal power to provide care because he punched out.
 
I suggest that healthcare is not paramilitary.
Your right healthcare is not paramilitary... but EMS specifically and the way its operations and personal are structured can be.
You say so yourself "Having worked with both FDs and "paramilitary" 3rd services "
Maybe it does not come down to when we are actually rendering patient care up close and personal.... but I think you know there are plenty of agency's with a look and feel of a sloppy paramilitary organization. One example is the fire department using this structure. Any EMS agency they run will most likely have something that resembles that structure. Lieutenants, captains, chiefs, ect... tighter grooming standards, some go as far to have "Academy's" Nothing else in healthcare resembles a paramilitary style like that, nothing.

You cannot be ordered to abandon a patient.
Correct that would be illegal. Just like in the military how if an illegal order is given like "kill those unarmed villagers" you do not follow it.
But what I am really saying is the paramilitary aspect of EMS is not so much when your actually treating the patient, its those in between times and the structure thats holding some agency's together.



In fact, in all the MCI literature I have seen, and in my first hand experience, it is often the first responding unit that determines how well an incident turns out. In most EMS systems that may mean paramedic joe shmoe who has no rank above field provider for the agency. While others can assume command after, they will never be able to redo the initial management. They cannot stop the incident and regroup, they can only carry on from where they were.
Yes I agree but there is still a chain of command in place, and it becomes even more so when additional units arrive and the first unit hands over command. The federal government is mandating mandatory training for all EMS personal now as I am sure you know. NIMS ect.....
[/QUOTE]




I think this is a matter of great debate. I have not found a consensus on this matter. I think the future of EMS is as healthcare providers. I think EMS persons are not yet, and the more they become so, the less like police and fire they will be. We'd have to start a new thread to talk about it though. Not enough characters in this one.
agreed it is a great debate. No matter what side of it your on EMS will always be the red headed step child of either healthcare (the hospital) or Emergency Responders (fire and police)


Again, said officers cannot order you to perform above, beneath, or alter the scope of practice or standards of care.
Your right, but they can order you to get a haircut, shave those sideburns, shine those shoes, iron that uniform, wax that ambulance, bring up problems through your" chain of command" ect ect
 
Outside of the top levels of health care (i.e. physicians, dentists, psychologists, podiatrists, physical therapists in some cases, etc), providers like paramedics RNs, RTs, etc require medical orders to provide care. These orders could be standing orders (like protocols) or what have you, but they still require orders (so the cliche of how paramedics and EMTs are above RNs because we don't need "orders" to give oxygen is patently false, we do need orders). Physicians with an unrestricted license don't require orders to provide care. Hence why an "off duty" physician is fundamentally different than an off duty RN, EMT, or paramedic. A physician doesn't lose his legal power to provide care because he punched out.
I am tracking everything your saying.... Are we disagreeing on something? I see you keep quoting me but I am not following why?

I never said Paramedics where above anyone, and yes an M.D. has the unrestricted licence and all those other providers have to work under one to some extent. The Paramedic is specific to pre-hospital emergency's... and in those circumstances, when on duty and acting on behalf of the medical directors protocols in place no one else may take over care other than another medical doctor or another on duty paramedic.... Right?
 
BTW JP and Vene, not to get off topic but are you guys both medical students?
 
Just for clarification, there are two types of "chain of command" in EMS organizations; Operational chain, and Clinical chain. Operational deals with operations, driving, following the rules of the organization. Clinical deal with patient care, and that's where your medical director comes into play that's why you can have an EMT supervisor supervising a medic (it's an operational authority, not clinical).

as for the original topic, typically the paramedic is in charge of patient care. If a MD is on scene, I would say ignore them. Not to be disrespectful to the doctor, but you have no way to verify the doctor is who he says he is, nor do you know what his skill set is. How do you know he isn't some nut job who likes to pretend to be doctor on emergency calls?

I know NYS has protocol book that says that most doctors should be directed to contact the online medical director directly if you have any questions. I'm sure exceptions can be made if you are called to the doctor's office and the doc is treating the patient, and while you should probably let the doctor do his thing, but unless the doctor is willing to transport with you to the ER (and most don't), once you lave the scene, you are no longer obligated to follow any of his or her directives, and should follow your protocol and your online medical control directions.
 
when on duty and acting on behalf of the medical directors protocols in place no one else may take over care other than another medical doctor or another on duty paramedic.... Right?

Since you're specifying on duty in contrast to someone who is off duty, do you give report to the RN at the hospital, or always and only to a physician? How about flight crews?
 
BTW JP and Vene, not to get off topic but are you guys both medical students?

Yes. I am going into my second year of medical school.
 
Since you're specifying on duty in contrast to someone who is off duty, do you give report to the RN at the hospital, or always and only to a physician? How about flight crews?

Flight crews are the grey area that was mentioned. I believe it was Linus that started to bring up some intriguing points.
The flight nurse is often required to also be a certified Paramedic as mentioned before. The ones who are not I would assume are written into the medical directors protocols to take over care from the paramedic or "pull rank" on the ground medic if need be sense they are part of the flight crew and also often have a Paramedic partner.

Regarding the nurse at the hospital, another good point. I dunno you tell me why or how its ok for us to turn over care to the RN at the ED or if that should even happen?

In my mind we are no longer pre-hospial field providers. We have made it to definitive care at the hospital and the ON DUTY nurse is a part of that and also working under a M.D. currently who is present.
 
Just for clarification, there are two types of "chain of command" in EMS organizations; Operational chain, and Clinical chain. Operational deals with operations, driving, following the rules of the organization. Clinical deal with patient care, and that's where your medical director comes into play that's why you can have an EMT supervisor supervising a medic (it's an operational authority, not clinical).
+1 agree
as for the original topic, typically the paramedic is in charge of patient care. If a MD is on scene, I would say ignore them.
Ahhh! What? You or them might have to contact medical control or verify the M.D. somehow but if they are who they say they are your now there taxi driver or little assistant if they choose to go all the way to the ED to hand over patient care to another M.D.
We use to have a card our medical director gave us to give on scene doctors. It was written by him to explain things in extreme detail and very long. By the time the on scene doctor read it we where loading the patient up and leaving lol. but..... If he/she wanted to do they could tell me to wipe the patients butt and step on the gas.
 
Back
Top