Has It Been A Waste?

[Hastings]

Very general question here (for Paramedics).

Do you ever feel like it's been a waste of time to spend three years taking full-time courses in college to make less than 30,000 dollars a year when those with a GED can make twice that working on an assembly line?

 

[medic417]

Ask my family, my friends, and even the strangers that are still with us thanks to my efforts. I don't count saves though as then I have take blame for those that I lose. Some times some things are more important than money. Plus I do make much more than the above with my full time EMS job and I still have time for part time work and still home enough to annoy my wife. In fact my hourly wage is higher than the RN's in the ER.

If education standards ever truly increase nationwide and people stop doing our job for free we will see higher wages nationwide.

 

[Sasha]

People who do EMS for the money are doing it for the wrong reasons. If it's something you love, then it's never a waste.

 

[vquintessence]

Very general question here (for Paramedics).

Do you ever feel like it's been a waste of time to spend three years taking full-time courses in college to make less than 30,000 dollars a year when those with a GED can make twice that working on an assembly line?

Well, that's a reason to be a huge advocate for AT LEAST getting a start at any community colleges. But to answer you, no it was not a waste getting my AD. I do what I love, the only sad part is having to work 60+ hrs a week to remain lower middle class. :sad:

How many people walk out of college nowadays with a bachelors in political sciene/liberal studies/etc who can't apply their degree to translate to a well paying job?

 

[VentMedic]

You have other professionals with Masters and Ph.D.s making that little. This includes teachers and while they may not like their salary, most love their careers. Those with Political Science degrees may start at the bottom making minimum wage while making posters for some small town campaign. But, they know they serve a purpose and their education has gotten them the edge to do something to make a difference. Future wine makers may use their Masters degree picking grapes in the field for minimum wage until they get enough experience to move up the ladder. Farmers with degrees in agriculture may operate in the red for many years. Fashion designers with degrees may be seamstresses. But, they have chosen their career and enjoy what they are doing.

A two year degree is not very much education. It is unbelievable that some in EMS can actually do the things they do with only a medic mill education. Probably, many shouldn't be especially with as little clinical time and experience as some are given lead in a truck almost immediately upon getting their state cert.

Blue collar workers in factories may make a good wage but are also at the mercy of the economy and the unions. They do not have much to bargain with except for a few "skills" much like EMS now. They have few options when they lose their jobs. This too is just like some in EMS where the health care industry wants licensed and degreed professionals whose education can be recognized within the walls of the hospitals and other facilities.

Right now reimbursement and salary in general for EMS is judged by its lowest common denominator. That, and the fact there is not a standardized minimum education set across the board. There is not even an accepted test for all the states. And, there are 50+ different levels used in the 50 different states. How do you expect legislatures to know what to call those in EMS and set some type of professional reimbursement schedule when EMS itself does not always know what to call its providers where most of the titles are based purely on one additional skill like "IVs".

Every health care profession has gone through the growing pains of getting everyone on the same page with education. The employers just started requiring higher education until everyone had a minimum of a two or four year degree. Then, it was no problem for that profession to set the standard and petition the legislators and insurances for profession reimbursement status.

EMS has just spent too long making excuses for not raising the bar. Due to the hype of the EMT(P) mills, they expect instant satisfaction in 3 months or less. EMS also has few roles models that can be called educators teaching them. It is usually the barely educated teaching those with just a little less education. EMS also tries its best to isolate itself from other health care professionals so there is little chance to see what an education can do for them or how peer pressure to keep up with one's education can get alot accomplished. Until this trade school mentality is replaced by one of an educated health care professional, you won't see much change in the industry but your patients will know if they are being cared for by someone with some knowledge.

 

[Ridryder911]

Could the pay be better, you bet. In my area many of the Paramedics are making more than some of the RN's. I have had many RN, Paramedics now want to return back to EMS after working as a RN. The ability to leave under staffed units and departments, being able to go the restroom and leave a difficult families and focus on a new one, when they can provide nursing as it is supposed to be done it's great but that is a seldom event so... basically enjoying their work again is much more important than money at times.

Alike myself, I still can work part time as a RN when and wherever I want making a good situation.

It does make me irritated to see factory blue collar type positions making more than even those with graduate and even doctorate degrees. I remember teaching years ago GM employees making three times more than most of the professors and having the course paid for and getting paid while attending college, laughing at us and describing where did all that book learning get you? I guess that is why I find it hard to be very sympathetic in today's economic times.

Yes, we need to meet professional standards to justify professional pay. Meet the demands that a profession requires and at the same time demand to be compensated both financially and professionally with all the benefits that is associated.

As one gets older; I have found out that money is still important but happiness is much more than just earning a buck. Getting up in the morning and enjoying what you do makes life a lot easier and less stressful.

R/r 911

 

[VentMedic]

It does make me irritated to see factory blue collar type positions making more than even those with graduate and even doctorate degrees. I remember teaching years ago GM employees making three times more than most of the professors and having the course paid for and getting paid while attending college, laughing at us and describing where did all that book learning get you? I guess that is why I find it hard to be very sympathetic in today's economic times.

But where are the majority of those GM employees now? Those that didn't take advantage of getting a college education are probably unemployed with few chances of getting another job in their area. All they will have to bargain with is the few skills from their GM job. If all you did was tighten a few nuts and bolts, I seriously doubt if one will have prospects of an exciting career ahead of them. Many do blue collar jobs because that is all they could see themselves doing due to the area they live in or because that is all their family has ever done. College may never have been a thought. Some see a GM job as a family tradition to be proud of and some convince themselves they don't have the smarts for all that book learning or a white collar job.

 

[Ridryder911]

But where are the majority of those GM employees now? Those that didn't take advantage of getting a college education are probably unemployed with few chances of getting another job in their area. All they will have to bargain with is the few skills from their GM job. If all you did was tighten a few nuts and bolts, I seriously doubt if one will have prospects of an exciting career ahead of them. Many do blue collar jobs because that is all they could see themselves doing due to the area they live in or because that is all their family has ever done. College may never have been a thought. Some see a GM job as a family tradition to be proud of and some convince themselves they don't have the smarts for all that book learning or a white collar job.

I totally agree. The GM plant here shut down a few years ago. Those that was installing lights were making nearly $30 hr and was laughing until this happened. They had a choice of re-training or a 'buy-out" of a salary for 10 months. Still not a bad deal for most that work everyday.

I do not think it was that most could not attend college or universities, rather they did NOT want to. We have a large problem that is slowly changing in this region of blue collar industries paying more than white collar, so career tech graduates are in higher demand. The apathy of higher education had ran high, as long as one could perform simple, mundane labor. Career techs out numbered colleges & universities 4:1. Yes, it is very hard to fight for educational progress when the salaries were at times triple of those with advanced degrees.

The tradition portion in my area was relatively small as it was the first auto plant in this area, but we did have a few that did transplant in just because of that reason. The main interest was high pay and no struggles to obtain it.

I am all in favor of increased wages but let us realistic and fair. One's only job of installing the front seat belt screws in comparison of recognizing and treating illnesses can hardly be compared.

Yes, most of those that did work had the opportunity of college and denied it, now regrets it. It is always nice to have a second or even third option. Economic & workforce is always changing.

R/r 911

 

[mycrofft]

Hastings, it's a personal thing.

A nursing degree, if a person is suited for it, would be a better carer move, but it is not a bed of roses.
Being jealous of people making more money than "you" (generic "you", not "you"-you), is an endless trap because SOMEONE somewhere makes more than you will ever.
Now, looking ahead, how long can you be a street medic? How are your back, your legs, are you getting enough sleep, are you saving enough in case of personal misfortune or, heaven forbid, disability or retirement?

 

[terrible one]

im guessing a lot of people on here are not from CA. you have to understand how HIGH the cost of living is and how LOW the pay for medics is to really get it. im not asking anything crazy but for the time and work i have put in, id like to atleast make more than the average kid at McDonalds.

$10.00/hr for medics is pretty insane to me. especially when we are entrusted with someone's life. they expect so much from us and we get so little.

im pretty close to going back to work at the tire store i did in HS. i didnt do this for the money but i do need to be able to eat and pay rent.

was it a waste? right now id say yes, until i am able to get a job that i actually pays me a livable wage.

 

[VentMedic]

im guessing a lot of people on here are not from CA. you have to understand how HIGH the cost of living is and how LOW the pay for medics is to really get it. im not asking anything crazy but for the time and work i have put in, id like to atleast make more than the average kid at McDonalds.

$10.00/hr for medics is pretty insane to me. especially when we are entrusted with someone's life. they expect so much from us and we get so little.

Considering the amount of training (just over 1000 hours) in CA it takes to be a Paramedic and the very limited scope of practice, some might argue they are over paid.

Besides, CA can use convicted felons if their county sees fit who might be happy to work for $10/hour.

 

[VFFforpeople]

im guessing a lot of people on here are not from CA. you have to understand how HIGH the cost of living is and how LOW the pay for medics is to really get it. im not asking anything crazy but for the time and work i have put in, id like to atleast make more than the average kid at McDonalds.

$10.00/hr for medics is pretty insane to me. especially when we are entrusted with someone's life. they expect so much from us and we get so little.

im pretty close to going back to work at the tire store i did in HS. i didnt do this for the money but i do need to be able to eat and pay rent.

was it a waste? right now id say yes, until i am able to get a job that i actually pays me a livable wage.

I aint a medic, but up here medics make 15 an hour for AMR, and If your lucky enough to get on with mercy or a sister hospital you start by making 26-28 an hour..and they were just looking for medics.

Anyway, education is never a waste, it is something you can never have taken away. The old saying (not sure who by) Live as if you were to die tomorrow, learn as if you were to live forever.

So, no money isnt everything, i rather wake up happy, then make a bunch of money and go to an early grave.

 

[Hastings]

But really, is the education to become a Paramedic really worth anything anywhere else? Not really. Three years of specialized classes that don't mean anything to others once you want to move on.

Besides, everyone thinks you're just the equivalent to a Taxi driver anyway.

 

[mycrofft]

i'd rathe wake up in my bed instead of under a bridge or in my car.

Compansation for full time employees is always the biggest share of medical costs. It alays attracts fire.

CA suffers from outside investors running up the cost of housing, so we go to Oregon and Washington and Nevada and do the same for them.

 

[Seaglass]

I also see college as insurance, as other posters have already said.

It depends. In my area, a firefighter/paramedic with a bachelor's makes much more than a teacher with a master's. College education gets considered for promotions. So I'd say it's not really a waste, unless it was a really expensive school.

For what it's worth, I've known some students who work as EMT's or paramedics to help pay their way through grad school or even college. In some cases, the jobs they were in school for actually paid less than the jobs they were working. Guess it was worth it to them, somehow.

 

[VentMedic]

But really, is the education to become a Paramedic really worth anything anywhere else? Not really. Three years of specialized classes that don't mean anything to others once you want to move on.

Besides, everyone thinks you're just the equivalent to a Taxi driver anyway.

The Paramedic cert may get you a few extra thousand dollars in a FD. As well, the degree will be a good base to go on to a 4 year degree for a promotion in the FD.

In other systems, the extra education can get you a position in education or precepting (the better departments).

There is also one EMS agency in TN that is now requiring a degree because they wanted to raise the bar from the usual "job" seekers to those interested in a career. Turnover is less if all have higher education and the 3 month medic mill wonders are not longer the lowest common denominator to pull you down to taxi driver level. Actually, many taxi drivers are better educated then some Paramedics from the medic mills.

Then, you do have Oregon that did raise its education requirements for licensure.

Right now, it all depends on whether YOU view what you do as a "job" or a "career". Once people start to view EMS as a career and not just a TV glamor job or an add-on for the FD, attitudes as a whole will change.

 

[Hastings]

I also see college as insurance, as other posters have already said.

It depends. In my area, a firefighter/paramedic with a bachelor's makes much more than a teacher with a master's. College education gets considered for promotions. So I'd say it's not really a waste, unless it was a really expensive school.

For what it's worth, I've known some students who work as EMT's or paramedics to help pay their way through grad school or even college. In some cases, the jobs they were in school for actually paid less than the jobs they were working. Guess it was worth it to them, somehow.

And if you don't want to be a firefighter? I certainly don't. I got into this because of medicine, stupidly enough.

But your second point brings me back to mine. I STILL haven't made enough money as a Paramedic to pay for the education it took to get the job.

 

[VentMedic]

But your second point brings me back to mine. I STILL haven't made enough money as a Paramedic to pay for the education it took to get the job.

Did you go to a state community college or a private tech school?

Approximately 44 semester credits which is a cert for Paramedics in Florida and California at a community college, will cost on average $70/cr. hr. In California, I believe it is only $22/cr. hr. So, a Paramedic cert can be obtained for less than $4k. A two year degree can be obtained for about $7k in FL and a lot less in CA. Yet, most want to pay a medic mill $12 - 22K for 3 - 6 months of training that often isn't transferable to anywhere or for anything because they want to get hired NOW to be part of the action.

How long do you think it takes teachers to pay of their 6 years of college? Do you know what the cost of graduate school is? I bet MMIz could enlighten you a little on that.

 

[Hastings]

Did you go to a state community college or a private tech school?

Approximately 44 semester credits which is a cert for Paramedics in Florida and California at a community college, will cost on average $70/cr. hr. In California, I believe it is only $22/cr. hr. So, a Paramedic cert can be obtained for less than $4k. A two year degree can be obtained for about $7k in FL and a lot less in CA. Yet, most want to pay a medic mill $12 - 22K for 3 - 6 months of training that often isn't transferable to anywhere or for anything because they want to get hired NOW to be part of the action.

How long do you think it takes teachers to pay of their 6 years of college? Do you know what the cost of graduate school is? I bet MMIz could enlighten you a little on that.

Community College, and it was about 10k.

My issue is that I will never ever feel fulfilled as a Paramedic. Not in any way. I need more, and I need to keep moving. And I am very discouraged by how both schools and employers regard the time spent being a Paramedic and training to be a Paramedic as just about the same as being a Taxi driver, like it's the lowest level, mindless job you can find. Makes it really difficult to move on when 4 years of your life are considered worthless.

 

[Seaglass]

And if you don't want to be a firefighter? I certainly don't. I got into this because of medicine, stupidly enough.

But your second point brings me back to mine. I STILL haven't made enough money as a Paramedic to pay for the education it took to get the job.

I don't either, although I'm keeping the option open. But if I was in it for a place where I'd get my education costs back, I sure would.

Around here, what ambulance companies pay is really variable, and usually pretty bad without a lot of experience. But as far as I know, many of the paramedics did make back the cost of that education. As for the cost of college education, I'd guess not.