Greatest Contributor to Burnout in EMS

MediMike said:
I've been gone for a long time, so I don't know if we've got people trolling on here now, but this comment is absolutely retarded. (Poor adjective I know, but whatever)

We are so incredibly far removed from being doctors that it's not even funny. Not even an urgent care PA. Hell, an MA can probably tell you the proper ABx to prescribe for various infections better than many on here.

Skills wise we are a combination of an ICU RN with standing orders and a doc in regards to RSI/Intubation. That's about it. I will agree that depending on which system you work in, there is some degree of "practicing medicine", but its not common in the U.S.

I'm curious to know how you can qualify yourself or your buddies as "smarter than the doctors" you transfer care to.
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Thats a pretty rude way to reply to a post "retarded" Really? I dont ever recall saying that I was smarter than an M.D But we have Medics smarter than *some* MD's that we transfer our care to. One M.D in particular likes to kill our pt's by removing pacing pads, darn near as soon as we cross the entrance doors. Thats just one example. I'm seriously not going to sit here and provide a flow chart explaining how " I can qualify my "buddies" to be "smarter than the doctors" we transfer care to.
 
Basermedic159 said:
Thats a pretty rude way to reply to a post "retarded" Really? I dont ever recall saying that I was smarter than an M.D But we have Medics smarter than *some* MD's that we transfer our care to. One M.D in particular likes to kill our pt's by removing pacing pads, darn near as soon as we cross the entrance doors. Thats just one example. I'm seriously not going to sit here and provide a flow chart explaining how " I can qualify my "buddies" to be "smarter than the doctors" we transfer care to.
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Perhaps this doctor has seen incompetent EMS providers, and prefers to immediately discontinue your interventions, and start their own assessment and treatment from scratch. As far as pulling the pacing pads, perhaps this doctor prefers to go with pressors instead of pacing. Perhaps their medical education and experience guides them to prefer that treatment instead. Perhaps our limited medical education does not allow us to see past the insult of a M.D. discontinuing an EMS intervention immediately.

Just a thought.
 
Basermedic159 said:
Everyone dosn't have the money to just pick up and go to med school...
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I understand that education is blisteringly expensive in the US. But I'm pretty sure that for most paramedics, it's still that they (i) lack the prerequisite courses to apply to most programs, (ii) lack the Bachelor's degree that most places want, (iii) lack the GPA, and (iv) lack the MCAT score. We don't do ourselves any favours by training at technical schools / private colleges.

I'm not saying that I haven't met tons of people in EMS who I thought could probably have done it. Just that there's a whole other set of hurdles to jump through before you get to applying.
 
Basermedic159 said:
I'm seriously not going to sit here and provide a flow chart explaining how " I can qualify my "buddies" to be "smarter than the doctors" we transfer care to.
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Then I don't think you're going to convince anyone here that your medics are "basically prehospital ER docs".
 
Poor midlevel and upper management is a huge source of burnout- see Emergystat or lost AMR contracts for example.

Nothing drives away employees like low wages and poor leadership.
 
Rocketmedic40 said:
Poor midlevel and upper management is a huge source of burnout- see Emergystat or lost AMR contracts for example.

Nothing drives away employees like low wages and poor leadership.
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Poor leadership more so than wages.

I make a salary that is more than fair for my education and experience. Would I like to make more? Of course.

I'm not sure where the notion we should make north of 50k starting comes from.
 
usalsfyre said:
I'm not sure where the notion we should make north of 50k starting comes from.
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Cops have similar educational requirements in NY, an associate's degree. A criminal justice degree is less difficult than an aa in paramedicine IMHO. Cops have better unions and a danger factor considered in their job. Cops whom get a bachelor's degree can advance for higher pay.

Medical techs, ER techs, Patient care techs and simialr hospital positions pay just as much if not more than paramedic jobs. They have less training, less responsibility but have a stronger union. They can advance by becoming RNs.
 
usalsfyre said:
Poor leadership more so than wages.

I make a salary that is more than fair for my education and experience. Would I like to make more? Of course.

I'm not sure where the notion we should make north of 50k starting comes from.
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I don't think we should make more starting, but we sure as hell should make more after 20 years. $50,000 is around were our wages top out when you hit the last step of the wage scale.
 
For me it was :censored::censored::censored::censored:ty pay and lack of sleep.....and my wife saying that if I kept pulling 72's that I would come home to an empty house one of these days. Sounds bad but she had been more than patient up to that point.

Oh, and people. I got to a point where I absolutely HATED people, and I would get physically sick having to go into these houses and speak to them. Luckily my partner was quite the character and usually stole show anyway.
 
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usalsfyre said:
I'm not sure where the notion we should make north of 50k starting comes from.
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$50,000 is an absolutely appropriate starting salary for a paramedic. It's really not even that much when you come right down and think about it.

And for quality paramedics the least that they deserve to be making.
 
systemet said:
I understand that education is blisteringly expensive in the US. But I'm pretty sure that for most paramedics, it's still that they (i) lack the prerequisite courses to apply to most programs, (ii) lack the Bachelor's degree that most places want, (iii) lack the GPA, and (iv) lack the MCAT score. We don't do ourselves any favours by training at technical schools / private colleges.

I'm not saying that I haven't met tons of people in EMS who I thought could probably have done it. Just that there's a whole other set of hurdles to jump through before you get to applying.
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I totally agree!!! I would love to be an M.D, and my specialty be an anesthesiologist. BUT....It'll never happen. I'm only 22 but I don't have the money or the time... : (
 
Entering the field for the wrong reasons, I believe if you have an honest desire to help people in need, youll have a fulfilling career in EMS. Thats just me.
 
emtvic17 said:
Entering the field for the wrong reasons, I believe if you have an honest desire to help people in need, youll have a fulfilling career in EMS. Thats just me.
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I could not agree with you more. Been in EMS for 30+ years. First 8 was a vol. EMT with a small ambulance. When I started riding with a Metro service I caught the bug to become a medic. It is a very rare day that I do not want to go to work. And when I do feel that way it's more than likely it would be a great day to go fishing.

Sure there are things that upset me, stress me out. I do not know of a job that would not. Hope to keep doing this for another ten if the body holds up. So far so good. :)
 
triemal04 said:
$50,000 is an absolutely appropriate starting salary for a paramedic. It's really not even that much when you come right down and think about it.

And for quality paramedics the least that they deserve to be making.
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I think $40-50k is not unreasonable, for a paramedic, depending on area.
 
firecoins said:
Cops have similar educational requirements in NY, an associate's degree. A criminal justice degree is less difficult than an aa in paramedicine IMHO. Cops have better unions and a danger factor considered in their job. Cops whom get a bachelor's degree can advance for higher pay.
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look at the stats of EMTs and Paramedics who get either injured on the job or are killed on the job. While it might not be as bad as cops, EMS is definitely a dangerous job.
firecoins said:
Medical techs, ER techs, Patient care techs and simialr hospital positions pay just as much if not more than paramedic jobs. They have less training, less responsibility but have a stronger union. They can advance by becoming RNs.
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So I can go to a hospital with no formal education or experience, complete an in house training program, and make more $$$ than a paramedic who has a 2 year degree and some experience in the field?

damn, now I want to be med tech in the ER. forget medic school, i can make more money with shorter time and money spent if I just become a tech.
 
Basermedic159 said:
I totally agree!!! I would love to be an M.D, and my specialty be an anesthesiologist. BUT....It'll never happen. I'm only 22 but I don't have the money or the time... : (
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Are you sure? Because there's a lot of people that overcome a lot of adversity to get into medical school.

Not everyone goes straight from high school and gets an Honour's undergraduate degree 3.9 GPA, perfect MCAT score, stellar extracurriculars, and rich parents paying for everything. (Not to say that those people haven't worked very hard to get where they are).

You're not even that old man!
 
usalsfyre said:
Poor leadership more so than wages.

I make a salary that is more than fair for my education and experience. Would I like to make more? Of course.

I'm not sure where the notion we should make north of 50k starting comes from.
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This. I make very little, esp. for SoCal, but the management at my division is top notch and makes me not want to leave. 40k a year sounds like a reasonable step 1 pay to me.
 
46Young said:
What do you consider to be the greatest contributing factor to burnout and attrition in EMS?...
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Well, I've been doing this for over 20 years and I am burnt to sh...

Yes, the schedule can suck some times but we mostly bring that on ourselves.

I don't buy the lack-of-advancement argument. Each EMSer chooses to move up or move out of their current employ as their needs/desires dictate. If your agency has nowhere for you to go there are always other agencies looking for superstars like yourself.

Plus, isn't an ambulance job kind of a stepping-stone kinda job anyway? If you are still an ambulance medic after 15 or 20 years then you lack ambition.

I'd say the biggest burn-out maker is just the relentless pain we see the survivors go through when their loved ones get killed. Mothers/fathers losing their children is the worst.

Oh, one more thing. The patients that talk and die. When they are already dead it's not so bad. It's when they talk to you THEN die that really rips me to shreds. Those make me feel like I failed them.

Respectfully,
crispymedic
 
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