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NomadicMedic

NomadicMedic

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OK, I've got a problem, and need some advice on how to fix this stuff.

I work for an IFT company. We're all Basics, and the company only provides BLS service.

I walked in today and found one of the more "senior employees" starting a line on one of the other guys.

So, I asked "What's going on?" and "Where did you get the IV start sets and solution?"

One guy says "Oh, I'm in the military and it's issued to me." This guy was NOT a medic.

The other guys says, "I'm an MPIC (Medical person In Charge) and I'm qualified to start IVs." This guy was not working as an MPIC. Both of them are simply an EMT-B that rides on an IFT truck.

OK... so that's all well and good, but we're not on a Military base or on maneuvers and last time I looked, the Coast Guard wasn't putting MPICs on IFT rigs.

My feeling is this: if you're not certified and under medical direction you should NOT have IV gear or ETTs or any other ALS gear you're not authorized to use. (And yes, these guys have all of that stuff in their cars) I don't want to see anyone at the station performing skills that is beyond their scope of practice and I don't think the stuff should even be allowed in the facility. There arte a LOT of new EMTs in the station and "showing off" to the newbies is bad news. If you want to play with IVs and Tubes, go to medic school.

The problem is this... the Station chief saw this stuff going on and didn't stop it. I made my point known to the parties involved (and will continue to complain) but I think this behavior is dangerous and unprofessional.

What's my next step?
 
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n7lxi said:
OK, I've got a problem, and need some advice on how to fix this stuff.

I work for an IFT company. We're all Basics, and the company only provides BLS service.

I walked in today and found one of the more "senior employees" starting a line on one of the other guys.

So, I asked "What's going on?" and "Where did you get the IV start sets and solution?"

One guy says "Oh, I'm in the military and it's issued to me." This guy was NOT a medic.

The other guys says, "I'm an MPIC (Medical person In Charge) and I'm qualified to start IVs." This guy was not working as an MPIC. Both of them are simply an EMT-B that rides on an IFT truck.

OK... so that's all well and good, but we're not on a Military base or on maneuvers and last time I looked, the Coast Guard wasn't putting MPICs on IFT rigs.

My feeling is this: if you're not certified and under medical direction you should NOT have IV gear or ETTs or any other ALS gear you're not authorized to use. (And yes, these guys have all of that stuff in their cars) I don't want to see anyone at the station performing skills that is beyond their scope of practice and I don't think the stuff should even be allowed in the facility. There arte a LOT of new EMTs in the station and "showing off" to the newbies is bad news. If you want to play with IVs and Tubes, go to medic school.

The problem is this... the Station chief saw this stuff going on and didn't stop it. I made my point known to the parties involved (and will continue to complain) but I think this behavior is dangerous and unprofessional.

What's my next step?
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Get ahold of your medical director and inform him or her. Performing treatments outside of your scope as defined by the medical director you are employed under, is a BAD thing.

If he is off duty from the military, he is off duty. It would be like a paramedic running around off duty with an ALS first in bag and treating everyone they saw on the side of the road. Not kosher.
 
Sasha said:
Get ahold of your medical director and inform him or her. Performing treatments outside of your scope as defined by the medical director you are employed under, is a BAD thing.

If he is off duty from the military, he is off duty. It would be like a paramedic running around off duty with an ALS first in bag and treating everyone they saw on the side of the road. Not kosher.
Click to expand...

Agreed. This is the same thing I said to them and they tried to justify their actions.

Also, the Mil guy is NOT a Military Medic. He's just a jamoke that bought some stuff.

I'm wondering if I should just go the the State EMS office. It's a bad thing.
 
Was he starting the IV as a treatment on the other guy? Or, were they practicing on each other?

I see nothing wrong with it, as long as they are not doing it on the general public. They can carry what ever they want in their cars. The problem comes when they use it for treatment on someone.

If they were just practicing skills on each other, then that is their business.
 
I totally agree with Reaper. Perhaps the only thing they could have done is not done it at work.

As long as the two in question know that they can't do it on patient's there shouldn't be an issue.
 
I guess my question is whether they were in uniform (for the BLS IFT company). I dont really care what they do on their own time, or with whatever they have in their cars, but if they are in work uniform, on work property (whether private bunk room or not) it is inappropriate. What if, for example, a supervisor was showing a VIP around, or for example, you were bein spot inspected by the state...? What would the inspector think about that?
 
emt.dan said:
I guess my question is whether they were in uniform (for the BLS IFT company). I dont really care what they do on their own time, or with whatever they have in their cars, but if they are in work uniform, on work property (whether private bunk room or not) it is inappropriate. What if, for example, a supervisor was showing a VIP around, or for example, you were bein spot inspected by the state...? What would the inspector think about that?
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It was taking place at the station... and it certainly wasn't done to "practice skills".

Neither one of these guys is an EMT-I or EMT-P. The service, where both are primary providers, is NOT an ILS/ALS service and there is no reason for the equipment to be in the station.

The guy starting the IV had taken his uniform shirt off, and had told me that he was starting the IV on the other guy "because he was dehydrated". I said, "Then give him a Gatorade".

It's just bad stuff to have going on in the building.
 
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But they were practicing skills that both are trained in even if they don't use them at that company.

My only issue is that they were doing it at work. If you want to practice giving IVs do it at home.
 
Horseplay on duty, on company property. Fired.

Next time management disciplines someone for horseplay or unprofessional conduct, remind them of this incident that they failed to act on. But otherwise, let it go. It's not your business.
 
There is no problem with the practicing part. Starting an IV for treatment of dehydration, Now that is a problem.
 
Thanks guys. I'll deal with it on my own.
 
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So Joe Schmo gets his hands on some IV supplies and practices giving IVs because he is a survivalist. He has no training or medical direction to do so. What do you think of that?

Did they endanger a patient's life? Did each understand what was going on?

My issue is with them doing it on company property. I agree that they should be disciplined for doing it at work but that should not buy them a pink slip.
 
n7lxi said:
Thanks guys. I'll deal with it on my own.
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Just be aware that "dealing with it" on your own may be a violation of written or unwritten policies of your employer. Since they have already overlooked it, it is quite possible that they consider this to be a closed issue. Creating a new issue out of it, when it is really none of your business, may well result in drama that your employer does not want, and a trip to the unemployment line for you. Again, let it go. It's none of your business. If you get fired over this, don't come crying to us about it. You were warned.
 
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It may be out of line for them to practice at work but thats all they were doing, PRACTICING. As for going to your medical director or the state EMS office, I would strongly recommend against that. That type of action would probably get you fired for not following your chain of command, but any other company/agency that knew about what you did would never hire you either. This is the type of scenario question that is thrown out at you during an interview for a FD or ALS company. Its true what they say "nobody likes a tattle tale":P
 
There are some issues of concern which the company should be made aware of through the proper chain of command so not to rattle or tattle the "code".

1. Where were the supplies obtained from? Were they made available for training purposes or taken without knowledge and payment? Were the supplies issued solely for the purposes of training or use in the military and not on those other than military personnel.

2. Even "students" do invasive procedures under supervision. EMT-Bs getting their IV cert may "practice" an IV start as outlined by some states under the supervision of a qualified licensed provider.

3. Who accepts the liability for these employees if something goes wrong especially if this is done while on the job? The company? The military?

4. Was any fluid actually administered through the IV?

And/Or

5. Was there a reason for the IV and fluid besides "practice"? Dehydration? Hang over?
If so, that now becomes "practicing medicine" which will be an issue for the state certifiying/licensing board. This would be true even at the Paramedic level if it is done "off the record" with no intention of writing an official patient record of care for an invasive procedure with the administration of fluids.
 
VentMedic said:
1. Where were the supplies obtained from? Were they made available for training purposes or taken without knowledge and payment? Were the supplies issued solely for the purposes of training or use in the military and not on those other than military personnel.
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Misappropriating military equipment is a violation of the UCMJ. The subject could face a court martial or NJP for such actions.
 
I can't say that I see anything wrong with it. They maybe could have done it somewhere other than work. Here in CO EMT-B's are IV certified. I was also a combat lifesaver in the military and it was common to practice sticking eachother every Sunday morning to get rid of hangovers. Not really a big deal.
 
EMT-B2B said:
I can't say that I see anything wrong with it. They maybe could have done it somewhere other than work. Here in CO EMT-B's are IV certified. I was also a combat lifesaver in the military and it was common to practice sticking eachother every Sunday morning to get rid of hangovers. Not really a big deal.
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If you must use IV fluids at work to treat a hangover, there may be other issues that should be addressed. If IV fluids were to be used so causally to ease your hangover, they would be available OTC alongside the aspirin. I would advise you not to advertise this "common practice". Those in control of your state certification might be listening.

You also used the words "IV certified". Because you are allowed to do something in one state or in the military may not entitle you to start IVs everywhere and on everyone. If you do not have the equivalent civilian cert, job description or supervised student status, you might as well be a lay person playing with needles.
 
Someone higher up the food chain is aware of this, and hasn't seen fit to stop it, so I'd mind my business and do my job. Work probably isn't the place to be practicing, however seeing that these guys are military folks who may end up being the only one available to start a line when one is needed, practicing how to do it isn't a bad thing. Using equipment "aquired" w/o permission might be a problem, and there is certainly a risk of infection or other complication that if the stickee were to seek medical care or complain, the sticker might be in a bad position to defend his actions.
 
VentMedic said:
If you must use IV fluids at work to treat a hangover, there may be other issues that should be addressed. If IV fluids were to be used so causally to ease your hangover, they would be available OTC alongside the aspirin. I would advise you not to advertise this "common practice". Those in control of your state certification might be listening.

You also used the words "IV certified". Because you are allowed to do something in one state or in the military may not entitle you to start IVs everywhere and on everyone. If you do not have the equivalent civilian cert, job description or supervised student status, you might as well be a lay person playing with needles.
Click to expand...

I'm not stating that using IV's at work to cure a hangover is ok. I'm simply stating that practicing IV's on one another is not an issue, if the people doing it are trained and able to do it. Their not running chest tubes on eachother, their running IV's. This "common practice" go's on all the time on military posts. The state certification has nothing to do with it. The fact that these two people decided to practice IV's on eachother at work is the only issue. Not the best decision.....but two willing participants practicing a skill,(that they are certified to practice through the military) that will make them more efficient, is very understandable. Just don't do it at work.
 
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