Getting EMT-B cert for Firefighting?

MrBrown

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I see poor brown subscribes to the bogeyman theory; the fire service is evil! Everything that is wrong with EMS is their fault! If they didn't exist EMS would be perfect! They are the only ones holding EMS back! :censored::censored::censored::censored:e. That belief of course disregards almost all facts, the current state and the history of American EMS.

As I have said elsehwere, the Fire Service is not the root cause of the problem but they but one of the factors. They may infact be one of the larger ones given the strength of the Fire Union's promotional power.

How does it disregard any facts about the history of EMS in the USA?

In the late 1960s Dr Eugene Nagel wanted to get out-of-hospital defibrillation for cardiac arrest in Miami. When he is interviewd in "Making a Difference: The History of Modern EMS" he states it was out of convienence more than anything to use the Fire Department because they were in the streets, had radios and a network of vehicles and a disclipine; all he had to do was teach them some medical skills.

Cobb and Cohen in Seattle/King County turned to the Seattle Fire Department to create Medic One in 1969.

It was in 1970 that Los Angeles County wanted to get a Paramedic system running but the locals complained bitterly about any sort of taxation to fund it because they were already overtaxed at the local level. The Los Angeles County Fire Department figured they had a lot of spare capacity because they only spend a couple of percent of thier time fighting fires and doing prevention work and could run EMS.

Then if we look at Los Angeles City they had single-role civillian Paramedics up until 1992.

I also can't help that brown will complain about the fire dept using dated evidence, and yet does the same thing with several of his links. The stink of hypocrisy is rising again... Oh well. Let's look at those things again.

You're missing the point. One or two of the documents might be a few years old (and I agree they are) however one must consider that these documents come from the IAFC EMS Section and the IAFF websites so should represent that which is current.

The other point is that the evidence (studies) the IAFC EMS Section use are very old (one is from 1990) and they are no longer clinically relevant evidence because a lot has changed since 1990 which makes the particular study in question void.

In 1990 EMT-Ambulance (EMT-Basic) could not use an AED nor where they widely avaliable (PAD/BLS with AED) and the study looked at arrival times and ROSC in cardiac arrest for those treated by civillian EMS vs Fire based EMS.

We all know anybody with an AED who rolls up be it the Fire Service, Jack Armstrong the All American Boy or the cops is probably going to have a positive impact upon rate of ROSC. I think its common knowledge cardiac arrest survival rates don't go on ROSC they go on neurologically intact people who walk out of hospital post community arrest; the Fire Service however chose not to use that proper marker of effectiveness for whatever reason; probably so they could get higher numbers and make themselves look better.

You will notice the Fire Service are very deceptive and refer to that study as proving that they offer superior patient care; they do not state in what context i.e. ROSC from cardiac arrest given fire-service AED first responder programs in 1990. Therefore, it is very misleading.

"It is no surprise that study after study has shown that fire department-based prehospital emergency medical care systems are superior to other provider types." No self-respecting devil's advocate or anyone with a brain could help but wonder, where is the study that shows the fire service is inferior when it comes to EMS? Not anecdotal evidence, or evidence gleaned from 1 or 2 depts, but as a whole?

The USA Today published a rather large article a few years back which showed cardiac arrest survival rates for 50 large American cities that presented data. With the exception of Seattle, the lowest numbers were Fire Department based EMS cities.

The recent intubation studies that come out of Miami show horrendously low succes rates, and they are, a Fire based EMS system.

I see what you are saying, but, turn that around and say the same thing to the IAFF, where is thier evidence?

"The “Golden Hour” describes the precious time period from time of injury through location and transportation to definitive care of a critically injured trauma patient to minimize death and permanent disability" That actually is what the concept of the golden hour is. It has nothing to do with time per se, and I don't believe that's how it was referrenced by the IAFF.

No of course not, thats why they use the word "time" in there and why it is called, the "golden hour"!

The point is the golden hour has been proven to have no basis in evidence (Bryan Bledsoe did a good presentation on it a few years back plus there have been several studies that say it has no real relevance) and be a myth without any solid foundation.

It is just another example of deceptive marketing by the IAFF to promote Fire Based EMS; oh we can get there quicker and stop the golden hour clock.

"Fire fighters not only respond more rapidly than their single-role EMS counterparts, but are also more effective in terms of patient outcomes (Braun 1990)." So...where is your actual proof to refute this and show that it's not true. Do you have anything, or is this just ranting and raving? If you want to argue that something is wrong, you had best be able to show why it is, not just complain and rave.

It was horrendously difficult to find this paper, there are some obscure references to it around the internet but I cannot find the actual article itself.

Notice the IAFF again left out the full APA reference for that study? I am not saying it was deliberate but sure is highly convienent.


"...[The IAFC EMS Section] question... whether the increase in knowledge gained through the draft [National EMS Education Standards] will have a real effect on the actual field practice" Will it? That is actually still an unknown at this time and a valid question. The change in paramedic level education is pretty small all things considered. How much impact will this actually have? As steps forward go, it's a small one. Future steps may change things more, but this doesn't do a lot.

The problem is that the Standards affect all levels of practice and many fire departments use Basic and Intermediate EMTs on thier staff. So it's a bit niave to say it only affects Paramedic level care.

I can sort of see where you are coming from in that at the end of the day the system only has two outputs (transport or get a refusal) and that an increase in knowledge will not change that (specifically as a result of the changes in that document).

It is however very disturbing that the Fire Unions are questioning the need for an increase in knowledge given that the US standards are some of, if not the, lowest in the developed world.


"With respect to CoAEMSP certification for paramedics under “Educational Infrastructure,” the education standards should also include certification via fire service academies accredited at the state level. Many states have “Technical/Vocational” schools that are not colleges/universities but provide a great deal of the EMS education. Many fire academies have excellent education and highly qualified training staff but would not qualify if the requirement was held to a college or university setting." It's actually a valid question. If a school meets all the requirements of CoAEMSP except for being associated with a college and provides all the education required by the new standards, should they be denied? For what reason? Of course, followers of the bogeyman theory will of course assume that all schools where firefighters are taught have Bubba as the head of the program. Sad. People who have a real understanding of the challenges facing EMS here will already know that there are a huge number of crappy so-called schools that aren't associated with any fire dept. It's not exactly a problem that affects only one group.

It's true and I fully agree not every crappy medic patch factory for warm pulses is associated with the Fire Service; I have never said that.

We all know the Instructor certifications are again woefully inadeuqate in the US and that many are simply teaching what they were taught because they have no greater understanding of the material than when they were taught it.

To affiliate programs with a College or University system would demand higher level qualifications for Instructors and weed out those who are simply regurgitating from thier own knowledge or the PowerPoint slides.

Paramedicine faculty here in New Zealand, in Australia, the UK and Europe have Masters Degrees or higher and Paramedic education is part of the University system.

If the vocational education system works so well then why have other developed nations removed it and insisted every Paramedic go to University?

What original idea or concept would you like me to come up with? I don't forsee anything I could think up that has not been thought up before by somebody else because they recognise the same problems as I do.
 

Veneficus

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xl-rO6RGVCk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEpcMyM8_0c&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ad80GcWSJC0&feature=related

To use language from the video, they have a standing army, deployed in every community.

I seriously think you underestimate the political capabilities of such an organization. Particularly when used to protect their won interests.

http://www.iaff.org/About/About.htm

http://www.iaff.org/politics/Firepac/what.html

I challenge anyone to find any labor union that has any interest but its own continuation at heart.

If your fire service or members reject the IAFF or IAFC positions, perhaps you should stop being a member and publically distancing your department and persons from their positions. (I won't hold my breath)
 

triemal04

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The USA Today published a rather large article a few years back which showed cardiac arrest survival rates for 50 large American cities that presented data. With the exception of Seattle, the lowest numbers were Fire Department based EMS cities.
Are you freakin' serious!? Tell me that was a joke and you are smarter than that. (you are talking about this, right: http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/ems-day1-seattle.htm If not then my apolgies, and you can ignore what I'm about to say) That was essentially a poll of the 50 largest cities on how their cardiac arrest survival rates where based on the Utstein Criteria for pt's in vfib/vtach. Only 26 responded, and only 14 were able to give the info they wanted, and 12 more were able to give a bit more info, but it's unclear if those 12 were counting all codes or just those in vfib/vtach, and if they were counting any ROSC pt who made it to the hospital as a save. It's also unclear where the paper came up with the survival rate percentage; they estimated the number of people in vfib/vtach based on averages, and it's unknown if the respondents gave them a number of "saves" or a percentage. Add in that the services at the top were fire depts as well and....sad. Dear god...why would you even think to bring that up? Not to mention that basing how good a system is based on cardiac arrest rates is probably the worst way to go about doing it.

The recent intubation studies that come out of Miami show horrendously low succes rates, and they are, a Fire based EMS system.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15855946?dopt=AbstractPlus Is that what you're talking about? It's from Orlando, but all I could think of. And it includes multiple types of services, not just fire-based. Try again. (if that's not what you were talking about then my apologies, and if you wouldn't mind posting a link to it that'd be appreciated) While you are at it, can you show something that shows that all fire-based EMS is bad? Because neither of those two items do that. The same type of thing can be found for every type of service out there, but it doesn't prove that one type is inherently less good than another. I mean, if you want to judge an entire service model on 1 or 2 areas, then be my guest, just realize how ridiculous that is, and do it for EVERYONE.

I see what you are saying, but, turn that around and say the same thing to the IAFF, where is thier evidence?
Not a clue. Where is your evidence that they are wrong? I mean, you wouldn't believe something unless there was some evidence behind it, right?

No of course not, thats why they use the word "time" in there and why it is called, the "golden hour"!
Yeah...my bad. I wrote that in a hurry. What I meant was that it has nothing to do with it being an hour, just that the theory of there being a time limit between when the injury happens and when definative care is needed is still accurate; what has been debunked is the part about it being an hour long. Should be called the "golden time" as it can range from a couple minutes to a couple days.

It was horrendously difficult to find this paper, there are some obscure references to it around the internet but I cannot find the actual article itself.

Notice the IAFF again left out the full APA reference for that study? I am not saying it was deliberate but sure is highly convienent.
Again I'll ask: where is your proof that this isn't accurate? You are making a lot of claims but showing very little in the way of real evidence. You are all for evidence based medicine and decison making, right? Perhaps you need to follow through in this situation.

The problem is that the Standards affect all levels of practice and many fire departments use Basic and Intermediate EMTs on thier staff. So it's a bit niave to say it only affects Paramedic level care.
It really doesn't. You need to actually go look at what the changes will be before you try and discuss this. This is less a change in education levels than it is a standardization process. There is some increase to be sure, but across the board it's very small. And many non-fire EMS services use non-paramedics too; what's your point? Paramedics will be having the greatest impact on what happens to pt's, so a large part of the focus should be on what their education level is. Not to mention that much of the changes do affect paramedics...

It is however very disturbing that the Fire Unions are questioning the need for an increase in knowledge given that the US standards are some of, if not the, lowest in the developed world.
Again, do you really think that the minimal changes made will affect pt care? Go look at what will change. It is a valid question, right or wrong.

To affiliate programs with a College or University system would demand higher level qualifications for Instructors and weed out those who are simply regurgitating from thier own knowledge or the PowerPoint slides.
Thanks, you are just helping to prove that you don't know much about EMS here. Simply being associated with a college (which is all that is required; doesn't have to be part of a college) does not gaurentee that the quality of the instructors will go up. There are very few places that require the instructors of college-based EMS programs to hold Master's or above; some don't even require a BA. And, guess what, CoAEMSP does not judge schools on the quality of thier programs; just on if they meet certain requirements. So, I'll ask the question again: if a school meets all the requirements and holds to the new standards, why should they be denied?

If the vocational education system works so well then why have other developed nations removed it and insisted every Paramedic go to University?
Who said it worked well? It's a valid question is all. Simply being associated with a college does not gaurentee the quality of instruction, just like not being associated with one doesn't. If all requirements are met with that one exception, why should they be denied? What really needs to happen is for somone to come up with a way to objectively judge the quality of instruction given along with everything else. That would have the most, and best impact.

What original idea or concept would you like me to come up with? I don't forsee anything I could think up that has not been thought up before by somebody else because they recognise the same problems as I do.
Basically, anything to show that you actually know what you are talking about when it comes the certain aspects of American EMS, and aren't simple regurgitating what you read here. So far, you fail utterly at that.
 

Veneficus

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Not a clue. Where is your evidence that they are wrong? I mean, you wouldn't believe something unless there was some evidence behind it, right?.


Are you suggesting that the IAFF and IAFC and by extension all the advocates of fire based EMS should be able to spout their utter lies and total BS as fact because nobody can prove them wrong even though they cannot prove it themselves?

As far as I am aware in science, you cannot prove a negative. So that is a very boased argument that it cannot be proven wrong.

Let's talk about reporting numbers for a minute.

Why aren't FDs using the Utstein template? Why are they not responding to requests for their numbers?

Are they going to adopt the new AHA reporting system? are they going to Publish their numbers?

I have to ask myself, one of the agencies that employs me reports their numbers all over the news. (of course it is a hospital)Have you ever noticed the Seattle area never fails to report their numbers? Why do you think that is?

Because their numbers are great. They are something to brag about, not hide.

If the Fire service was truly interested in advancing medical care, why wouldn't they mandate a publically available standardized reporting system?

Could it be they know they really suck and don't want anyone to find out?


In my home state a mandatory reporting system was established. (most of the state is Fire based EMS, in fact we could count on one hand the 911 agencies that aren't. They accepted the system on the caviat it would not be made public and was only for internal record keeping. They went as far as to sue to keep it private when medical officials going over the records wanted to divulge the numbers in order to force departments to change. (I am told by a doctor who saw them the numbers were abysmal)

Look at the recent legislation put forth in the state of LA. Why would a fire service suggest they should not be held accountable to the state agency overseeing EMS? Perhaps the regulatory agency was being too hard on them? No organization in any industry that is of quality fears an oversight body. Most can't wait to host them so they can brag about the results.

Bottom line:

The fire service bodies brag how great they are. Challenge people to the impossible scientific task of proving them wrong. Use very poor studies to demonstrate they are correct. Fight to not use or report recognized medical reporting standards.

Why would you do any of that unless you suck and need to hide it?
 

MrBrown

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Why is Fire based EMS used nowhere else in the world except the US if it works so well?

Why have both the New Zealand Fire Service and the New Zealand Professional Firefighters Union vigorously fought so hard to not to medical runs, stating it is not in the interest of either profession?

Look at Firefighter/Paramedics in Washington DC, how many lawsuits and new items have they had recently about substandard patient care.... hmm

What about the recent spate of "dead people" who werent really dead; most of them were from Fire based EMS systems; Arizona, Arkansas, Maryland ....

The scientific evidence just does not exist to prove either of us right.

Is the Fire Service 100% to blame for piss poor EMS? No, are they the worst ... probably.
 

atropine

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One reason fire-based ems exist in the US is because we rock, second who the hell wants to be a private medic any ways making $14.00 an hour, I know what I know and what I know is that I make more than some RN's and PA's, and until somebody who has a higher pay grade than my chief decides that the system is broken who Iam to say say lets fix it.
 

Hal9000

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One reason fire-based ems exist in the US is because we rock, second who the hell wants to be a private medic any ways making $14.00 an hour, I know what I know and what I know is that I make more than some RN's and PA's, and until somebody who has a higher pay grade than my chief decides that the system is broken who Iam to say say lets fix it.

Indeed:

http://www.dailynews.com/ci_12175241

--56 firefighters earned at least $100,000 in overtime on top of their annual salaries last year, up from three in 1999 and 10 in 2005.

--The average Los Angeles firefighter earned about $36,500 in overtime in 2008, compared with $29,000 in 1999. Their average salary and overtime compensation totaled $117,000.

--The department's top earner racked up a total of $570,276 in overtime in the last three years, including $206,685 in 2006. His three-year overtime total was nearly double his base salary for that period.

--Recruits earn overtime for after-hours remedial training "if they feel the need for more time to grasp the skills," a department spokeswoman said.

...

The highest overtime earner in 2008 was Donn D. Thompson, a firefighter-paramedic III. He earned $173,335 in overtime in addition to his nearly $100,000 base salary while working at Fire Station 19 on Sunset Boulevard in Brentwood.

The year before, Thompson earned $190,256 in overtime and in 2006 the figure was $206,685.

The second-highest overtime earner in 2008 was firefighter-paramedic Alan Naeole. He took in $164,785 in overtime at Air Operations, based at Van Nuys Airport, in addition to his $100,000 base pay.
 

Veneficus

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sounds like somebody of a higher paygrade should replace the chief as the OT earnings suggest they could hire 1 or more people at near the same cost as paying overtime.

One reason fire-based ems exist in the US is because we rock, second who the hell wants to be a private medic any ways making $14.00 an hour, I know what I know and what I know is that I make more than some RN's and PA's, and until somebody who has a higher pay grade than my chief decides that the system is broken who Iam to say say lets fix it.

Let me try to be as kind as possible.

You cannot identify potential problems in the system you work in and rely on people to tell you what is best without making any attempt to mprove your care by analyzing data?

You base the effectiveness of your medical treatment on your earnings?

I've heard of evidence based medicine, but income based medicine? I think the term used to identify people in medicine who base effectiveness on what they earn and not if the treatment works "quaks" or "snake oil salesmen."

The union must be real proud of you.

Probably best if you don't make any decisions.
 
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atropine

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sounds like somebody of a higher paygrade should replace the chief as the OT earnings suggest they could hire 1 or more people at near the same cost as paying overtime.

One reason fire-based ems exist in the US is because we rock, second who the hell wants to be a private medic any ways making $14.00 an hour, I know what I know and what I know is that I make more than some RN's and PA's, and until somebody who has a higher pay grade than my chief decides that the system is broken who Iam to say say lets fix it.

Let me try to be as kind as possible.

You cannot identify potential problems in the system you work in and rely on people to tell you what is best without making any attempt to mprove your care by analyzing data?
You base the effectiveness of your medical treatment on your earnings?

I've heard of evidence based medicine, but income based medicine? I think the term used to identify people in medicine who base effectiveness on what they earn and not if the treatment works "quaks" or "snake oil salesmen."

The union must be real proud of you.

Probably best if you don't make any decisions.

Hey pal, don't be a hater, again if things are so bad the why arent the citizens crying about drastic change?, it is what it is, the reality is that you can do all that much in the field and no medical director is going to risk all that liability. Plus all the education debate is a joke who the hell is going go to school for four years as some suggest should be the min for paramedic and turn around to pick up a gig that only pays $14.00 an hour, not me or anyfone eles I know, those who cry and complain either can't cut it in the fire service, because they too fat and lazy or just need to complain about something. Guys right are testing every chance they can because they want cold hard cash that is the reality of it.
 

TransportJockey

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Hey pal, don't be a hater, again if things are so bad the why arent the citizens crying about drastic change?, it is what it is, the reality is that you can do all that much in the field and no medical director is going to risk all that liability. Plus all the education debate is a joke who the hell is going go to school for four years as some suggest should be the min for paramedic and turn around to pick up a gig that only pays $14.00 an hour, not me or anyfone eles I know, those who cry and complain either can't cut it in the fire service, because they too fat and lazy or just need to complain about something. Guys right are testing every chance they can because they want cold hard cash that is the reality of it.

Some of us have no desire to be forced into the hosemonkey role. And some like me couldn't pass a FD physical due to past injuries (I have had 2 FD physicals and due to a large quantity of metal in my lower left leg that limits range of motion, I couldn't pass)
 

dave3189

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Why is Fire based EMS used nowhere else in the world except the US if it works so well?

The United states does most things better than any other countries???! I wouldn't be using that arguement to make your point!
 

Veneficus

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Hey pal, don't be a hater, again if things are so bad the why arent the citizens crying about drastic change?.

Propaganda?
apathy?
ignorance?
Who can say? But most american's don't even know how their government works, much less what they can do to effect change.

it is what it is, the reality is that you can do all that much in the field and no medical director is going to risk all that liability.

I find itto be true, a medical director won't risk the liability because a GED and vocational cert just isn't enough to trust people to make informed medical decisons. For example Naples, Florida, among others.

Plus all the education debate is a joke who the hell is going go to school for four years as some suggest should be the min for paramedic and turn around to pick up a gig that only pays $14.00 an hour, not me or anyfone eles I know,.

Unionized employees in many industries have felt the same way. Look at what a US steel worker makes today, or how great the jobs are over at GM. It may have escaped your notice, but in the modern era, it is near impossble to make a middle class living performing skilled labor in the US.

From the political side, one party is pro union, one is anti union, which means the benefits you enjoy today may be first on the chopping block if the current administration were to be replaced. Additionally doesn't CA have a major budget deficit? Eventually there will be painful cuts or a major tax raise, or both. The IAFF will ot be the first union to bankrupt its industry.

In the WSJ the other day I read that unemployment for people without a bachelor's degree was at 20.9% With a 4 year degree 7.something% I don't know about you or the people you know that wouldn't get a degree for $14.00an hour, but from the employment standpoint, it sure looks like a good idea to have one. Currently there are many people with a degree accepting jobs well beneath them, for less money. When the junior guys get laid off, what are they going to do? Try to compete for jobs with people who have degrees?

those who cry and complain either can't cut it in the fire service, because they too fat and lazy or just need to complain about something.

Don't know where you got that idea from, but it is very simpleminded. There are many people, who paygrade is well above "chief" who try to effect change in order to make sure people like you will have a job in the coming days when your value in society is called into question. I also am quite proud to be one of those guys who did make it in the fire service and moved on to bigger things. It may have escaped your notice, but only the people with a degree get to sit around the table when discussions on what the future holds takes place. I wouldn't want to be the one with no input on how valuable I am when those decisions are being made.

Guys right are testing every chance they can because they want cold hard cash that is the reality of it.

As they always have, and always will. But those positions are very rare, and in jeopardy. Look around the world at the lifestyle an uneducated laboring class can expect. This isn't 1930, we live in a global economy. If it is happening elsewhere, it is only a matter of time before it happens here.

Keep in mind also basic economics. When Supply is high (guys lining up left and right) an demand is low (uneducated labor) it is only a matter of time before the union cannot save your job because somebody is willing to do it for $14.00/hour. From the national level on down, "business as usual" is not going to be for many more years. Especially since "irresponsible" Govt. spending s not looked kindly upon currently. What are you planning to do when a group of teabaggers decide you are govt. waste they don't want to pay for? many in the middle and working class might be wondering why they are paying taxes for those firemen to make outrageous sums of money.

Perhaps it might have occured to you many of your leaders will be retired when trying to save your industry with the same playbook used in the late 1800s doesn't work. It would really suck to be a few years from retirement, or higher in age without an education when you find yourself out of work. If you think $14.00/ hour sucks now, wait till your 55 and you're competing for a job with some highschool kid at McDs because all the guys not employed at the FD working a low class private ambulance go out and get a degree in the next few years.

Thinking your job is beyond reproach and not being aware of the factors affecting you because "somebody with a higher pay grade is taking care of it," is not only short sighted, it is historically shown to not be effective.

I just gave you knowledge more valuable than your chief or your union reps, for nothing. A kind jesture for a guy that just needs something to complain about.
 
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MrBrown

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...Plus all the education debate is a joke who the hell is going go to school for four years as some suggest should be the min for paramedic and turn around to pick up a gig that only pays $14.00 an hour, ...

Could be why you make about $50k here as a Paramedic (entry level) and $60 or $70k as an Intensive Care Paramedic.
 

dave3189

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Some of us have no desire to be forced into the hosemonkey role. And some like me couldn't pass a FD physical due to past injuries (I have had 2 FD physicals and due to a large quantity of metal in my lower left leg that limits range of motion, I couldn't pass) __________________

Funny you say you have no desire to be a hosemonkey, but yet you admit you took two FD physicals and failed them. Were you taking the physicals just for kicks? BTW, one might argue if you are physically unable to be a FF, you may not be physically able to be in EMS?
 

TransportJockey

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Some of us have no desire to be forced into the hosemonkey role. And some like me couldn't pass a FD physical due to past injuries (I have had 2 FD physicals and due to a large quantity of metal in my lower left leg that limits range of motion, I couldn't pass) __________________

Funny you say you have no desire to be a hosemonkey, but yet you admit you took two FD physicals and failed them. Were you taking the physicals just for kicks? BTW, one might argue if you are physically unable to be a FF, you may not be physically able to be in EMS?

I took two physicals because at the time they were the only places hiring EMTs. Wound up working private service and enjoyed it much more than I ever did on internship at FD

And The only reason I failed was due to range of motion. I have no problems running or doing anything else that they required. It's the same reason I was turned down for active service at USCG, USAF, and USA physicals
 

Hal9000

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Additionally doesn't CA have a major budget deficit? Eventually there will be painful cuts or a major tax raise, or both. The IAFF will ot be the first union to bankrupt its industry.

Ask and ye shall receive:

Clicky the linky

The Stanford report estimates that California's shortfall for government pensions and health care benefits is about $535 billion (Anderson, Contra Costa Times, 4/5).

Researchers tallied CalPERS' unfunded liabilities at $239.7 billion and CalSTRS' liabilities at $156.7 billion.

Pension Liabilities Could Lead To Health Cuts, Other Changes

The Stanford report suggests that California would need to put $360 billion into its pension and health benefit systems immediately to have an 80% chance of meeting 80% of the obligations within 16 years (Contra Costa Times, 4/5).

"The consequences are clear: increasingly large portions of state funding for programs Californians hold dear such as schools, parks and health care will be diverted to pay for this debt."

But wait, there's more

"Something has got to give," says Joe Nation, the director of a Stanford University graduate program that is reporting today that the cumulative shortfall from California's three giant pension funds alone is somewhere around $500 billion.

Not only is that considerably more than the state is currently projecting, but it's almost six times the state's entire general fund budget. In other words, it would take California six years -- with no spending on education, public safety, health care or anything else -- to fill the gap.

But as NPR and others noted, that $1 trillion figure is unrealistically low.
Experts like Joshua Rauh, an associate professor of finance at the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University, say pension funds are using exaggerated assumptions about investment returns.

"Our calculation is that it's more like $3 trillion underfunded," Rauh told NPR.

The Stanford report, for instance, concludes that the California pension funds have been using an inappropriately high "discount rate" to calculate future liabilities, and uses 4 percent instead. (The report also reflects the three California funds' $110 billion -- or 24 percent -- loss in portfolio value between mid-2008 and mid-2009. But if the portfolios have continued to more or less mirror the performance of the Dow, they have likely gained back much of that loss by now.)
 
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dave3189

Forum Crew Member
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It's funny reading all the different opinions on this topic, as it reminds me of listening to politicians and how they always take the side of their party. We all think the system we work in is the best. I haven't read any posts from someone saying I work in Fire Based and it sucks, or vice versa with privates? I'm not bashing anyone, hell... I'm guilty of it myself. It's just funny how we all spend so much time trying to make our points and convince others to agree with our contention when in the end we are all loyal to the systems we work in.
 

Hal9000

Forum Captain
405
3
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It's funny reading all the different opinions on this topic, as it reminds me of listening to politicians and how they always take the side of their party. We all think the system we work in is the best. I haven't read any posts from someone saying I work in Fire Based and it sucks, or vice versa with privates? I'm not bashing anyone, hell... I'm guilty of it myself. It's just funny how we all spend so much time trying to make our points and convince others to agree with our contention when in the end we are all loyal to the systems we work in.

Eh, I think that Veneficus was fire... (?)
 

LucidResq

Forum Deputy Chief
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I'm going to have to throw this out there....

Taiwan's EMS system is even more fire-based than in the US. 100% fire-based, actually. They've had mixed results. An advantage of their system is the education level of their providers - they all have a degree. This is a result of the fact that all public safety workers in Taiwan - police & fire - must have a degree (associate's level, at least, I believe). A major problem that they have is a lack of EXPERIENCED medics. EMS positions in the fire service are an "entry-level" track to fire officer positions, so almost every person who does EMS for a few years promotes up to be an officer a position that does no EMS. So you have constant, extremely high turnover.
 

Hal9000

Forum Captain
405
3
18
I'm going to have to throw this out there....

Taiwan's EMS system is even more fire-based than in the US. 100% fire-based, actually. They've had mixed results. An advantage of their system is the education level of their providers - they all have a degree. This is a result of the fact that all public safety workers in Taiwan - police & fire - must have a degree (associate's level, at least, I believe). A major problem that they have is a lack of EXPERIENCED medics. EMS positions in the fire service are an "entry-level" track to fire officer positions, so almost every person who does EMS for a few years promotes up to be an officer a position that does no EMS. So you have constant, extremely high turnover.

I'm ignorant, but are there many fire-based organizations which have much of a progression ladder for EMS, or one that makes financial sense to follow? Good example you provided.
 
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