Five People Killed in Ambulance Crash

jmaccauley said:
Really? What other assumption can be made? Put your anti police feelings aside and wake up to the fact that people are responsible for their actions. If you cannot get your patients, or yourself, to the scene or hospital safely, hauling butt is pointless. Now, others have said it and although EMS transports these MVA victims, LEO investigate these tragedies. We suffer along with everyone else. It will be a police officer who goes to the family and makes the death notification, so yes, I'll make that assumption.
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my anti-police feelings....thats nice considering used to be a part-time police officer
 
Emtgirl21 said:
I have personally been affected by an ambulance accident where two people i knew and had worked with were killed while running lights and sirens. Yes they were speedings. However I believe their is a right and a wrong way to run code.If you follow the rules and pay attention to what your doing you then you shouldnt have a problem. I just dont get why you guys are so against running lights and sirens.
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How much time do you really save running code? Let's face it, an ambulance is not a race car and you are limited on your top end speed (for safety, handling, and patient treatment considerations). Where you can make up the time running code is at intersections such as stop signs and stop lights. Unfortunately, these are the absolute worse places to be blowing through them running code. It is a risk vs reward comparison. The few (and I mean less than 5) minutes you save is often times NOT worth the risk to you, your crew, your patient, and the public. If those 5 minutes are really going to make a difference to your patient, then most of the time they are going to have a negative outcome no matter what you do.
 
Lights and sirens were never intended to allow emergency vehicles the right to disregard safety. They are to warn others that you are enroute to an emergency and allow them time to give right of way. There are three factors in play during a code 3 run: the driver and their ability, the mechanical reliability of the vehicle and, other traffic or pedestrians. The emergency vehicle operator can only control one of those factors. Just for the sake of testing this theory, someday hook up an ekg to the operator and see what is happening internally both during a normal run and when the lights and sirens get activated. Elevated stress levels produce diminished peripheral vision, auditory exclusion (hearing reduction) and a slower reaction time. Science, not an opinion.
 
Emtgirl21 said:
my anti-police feelings....thats nice considering used to be a part-time police officer
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Again, this is not a character issue. I responded to your complaints about the punk cops who issue tickets to medics. I gave an honest opinion of why I don't believe that careless driving should be excused due to your profession or perceived emergency. And yes, I was brutally honest in my assessment of how 5 lives were shattered by tragic bad decisions. Your part time status should have introduced you to those principles as well. Not knowing you or your job history, I can only respond to what I'm presented with here. I have been a fire fighter, first responder and a police officer for over 27 years and do not claim to be an expert on all things medical, but I have trained, been trained and watched the results of that education shape my profession. Good, bad or ugly, there are problems that can be overcome with some personal effort.
 
This one tragic event is making headlines because of the number of deaths. There are so many other accidents that happen monthly, weekly and daily that aren't "horrific" enough for the front page. Yet, they too may change someone's life forever. jmaccauley has discussed the investigations he has done involving fatalities. I'm sure he could fill many, many pages with the accidents that "just disabled". Any injury can be life altering. If you are injured, your family will also be greatly affected, especially if you are the primary monetary supporter. If you injure someone else, it is affects that person, their families, you and your family. Medical bills, legal problems and changing careers can take its toll even if there were no fatalities involved.

The training in EVOC is not enough. It is an overview of a few fundamentals and laws. Good judgement, decision making skills, competent and confident medical professionals in that truck will make the difference not lights, sirens and speed.
 
I could not have said it better myself. My point is this; This is once again a hard learning lesson for all parties involved, at that little town, the people that work and live there and also for us, the seasoned vets to the young starting students and newbies. We all need to understand that we are not the only ones out there, we need to look after each other and the public. -_-
 
Emtgirl21 said:
I just dont get why you guys are so against running lights and sirens.
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Because, simply put .. They are very rarely if ever needed!. There is a very few cases, maybe 3-4 that ever warrants expedition back to the ER, if the person in back knows what they are doing. Some cities have reviewed the statistics and have seen that actually running back with light and sirens actually causes a delay, some have now totally removed protocols to ever return with L/S. This is a new trend that will only grow more and more as increased fatalities, injuries, and damage occur. Not to have proper EVOC and not using l/s conservatively procedures is foolish, and asking for trouble.

Insurance companies that provide coverage for EMS, have asked and promoted safe EVO for decades, but to no avail we ignore and still promote poor such behavior. The old school of "running hot, and fast!" cannot be broken

I have asked this question before, and maybe attempt to possibly resurrect the thread. One needs to ask themselves, if they removed L/S would you still be in EMS? I would hope your primary goal is patient care, not the feeling from adrenaline rush from the L/S.


R/r 911
 
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Many State Police Agencies also have adapted to these statistics. You may have noticed that once a Trooper arrives at the scene, he will often move the vehicles off the roadway and turn off his own lights as soon as possible. This reduces the amount of rubberneckers and the "moth to a flame," phenomenon. Mainly, vehicles running into the rear of a police car. Do officers still drive fast to emergencies? Of course. They are also extremely liable for anything bad that happens along the way. Lights and sirens do not indemnify you against lack of caution.
 
Maybe it has to do with the slow farmers, tourists and logging trucks I have on my roads, but I've never seen lights or sirens do much to make my trip to the ER any more efficient.

I use them so that others can see me coming, not as an order for them to pull over and let me drive like an idiot. I've seem more people panic at the sight of the lights and do something stupid to make me comfortable with them. They are a warning light..... not an imperative to commandeer the road.
 
Don't get me wrong, I'm certainly NOT denying the statistics in ANY way, I just can't imagine having to get a patient in need of higher medical attention to a hospital without l&s at certain times of the day around here. Then again I'm in the most populous county in one of the most congested states in the union. Heck, I can't imagine just DRIVING at all at certain times of the day around here. I guess it could be worse.

Just my $.02, what do I know, I admittedly have very little experience.
 
In the rural county I work in we do not even use lights and sirens anymore, unless there is alot of traffic through town (which is not to often). We drive to and from scene just like we where going to the store following traffic laws. I have timed our response with and without lights and sirens to and from scene and we are accually just a little faster and alot safer without.
 
BossyCow said it best. What usually happens when drivers see lights and sirens in their mirror? They either immediately pull over without making sure they can safely do so, or STOP inthe middle of the road and hope you can magically avois hitting them. Same at an intersection. With AC and music blasting, most people either don't hear the sirens or can't figure out where they are coming from. I've pulled into intersections and nearly been hit by police and ambulances because by the time I saw them, it was too late to react.
 
jmaccauley said:
. With AC and music blasting, most people either don't hear the sirens or can't figure out where they are coming from.

This also brings up a very valid point from a past thread, the newer cars are being made to almost be sound proof, not to also mention the IDIOTS :wacko: that wear their dam :censored::censored: I-Pods while driving!<_< I have seen it happen WAY too much already, Ask VentMedic about it, it just makes me shake my head.........:sad:
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A commonly held theory around here is that the more expensive the car, the less likely the driver is to yield. When it comes to the high-end import luxury sedans, they are now basically expected to just pull in front of the rig preventing you from passing at all. But this theory may lend further support to your point Airwaygoddess, about newer cars being so sound proof.
 
Airwaygoddess said:
jmaccauley said:
. With AC and music blasting, most people either don't hear the sirens or can't figure out where they are coming from.

This also brings up a very valid point from a past thread, the newer cars are being made to almost be sound proof, not to also mention the IDIOTS :wacko: that wear their dam :censored::censored: I-Pods while driving!<_< I have seen it happen WAY too much already, Ask VentMedic about it, it just makes me shake my head.........:sad:
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There are too many distractions for the car driver and the vehicles are too comfortable. Combine that with the human brain that is already distracted by the self absorption of one's life and you've got a mess on the roadways.

When walking around town, I am amazed that people will not put down their cell phone while they attempt to move their vehicle out of the way of an ambulance. They look almost defiant as if to say to the EMTs "Just a minute please, got to take this call". So what is the point of using lights and sirens to get their attention?! It'll only annoy them and they might miss a phone call.

Has anybody noticed an increase in pedestrian vs vehicle collisions in the past 3 years in their area? Two distracted persons, one as a pedestrian and one in a vehicles usually has a bad outcome. I've had patients who have walked/ran into a muni-rail train. I'm sure the pedestrian will sue the train even though it did not leave its tracks to intentionally hit the person. The tracks don't move and the train is big...you didn't see or hear it while walking into it?!?! A young, healthy, and athletic person that can't hear or see a train that follows train tracks?

iPod? cell phone?

For the car drivers who insist on ignoring me when I am a pedestrian, I may have to attach a sharp object to the end of my walking cane and give them a sample of my writing skills as their fender cuts me off in the cross walk.
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Well... I find it funny that seatbelts haven't even been talked about in the news of the crash I've seen... nor have I heard a reason for why there were 5 members on the rig with 3 patients.

Anyone hear anything about these topics?

As for speed - if the Highway Patrol said the rig was doing 40 MPH.... they've got evidence to back that... the rig "slowed down" for a stop sign... but 40mph, or even 20, is too fast to go through a stop sign... when in PA, (in an Ambulance) I am legally REQUIRED to STOP for every red light and stop sign, even when running "hot".
 
VentMedic said:
For the car drivers who insist on ignoring me when I am a pedestrian, I may have to attach a sharp object to the end of my walking cane and give them a sample of my writing skills as their fender cuts me off in the cross walk.
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I would put on my steel toed boots and jump up on their car hoods to get out of the way only to do a little tap dance/ Morse code to get my point across.......Wake Up!! Pay Attention And Drive The Dam Car!!;)
 
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Jon said:
Well... I find it funny that seatbelts haven't even been talked about in the news of the crash I've seen... nor have I heard a reason for why there were 5 members on the rig with 3 patients.
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So there were a total of 8 people. Hmmm 3 patients-5 rescuers=vollie squad.
Now, not all vollie squds would perform such action, but one can at least say most professional units would not because... doubtful they would have that many extra personal to allow to occur, as well as having policies never transporting more than one critical per truck and never more than two patients for billing purposes as well. Since trucks = money, more and more are stricter in dirving policies and have devices to monitor unsafe behavior.

Now, the tragedy has occurred and the city will have to pick up the tab. We know that this bill will be in the millions. It would had been so much cheaper to staff and have provided true education that could had possibly prevented such an incidence from occurring. The price was not just in monatory form, but in the costs of lives of the patients and providers, then the costs in financial now too.

One can assure there will be changes, if not the tragedy was in vain and will repeat itself if not there, somewhere else.

There is NOincident where I have ever seen the need of transporting three patients in one unit, with this said; I also have never had an event where FIVE rescuers were ever needed in the back of the unit. More than two or even on a cardiac arrest make it crowded and as well nothing to do or perform enroute.

It appears the whole scenario was wrong, not just the driving. Not controlling the situation and thinking things through, by placing multiple patients in one unit, too many rescuers, and a probably over zealous actions causing an adrenaline scenario.... thus the 40 mph through an intersection. One can logically conclude that the unit was probably speeding much more than that before it reached the intersection area.

This was a horrible tragedy.. period. As bad as that was, we should not disregard this event rather use it as a model to prevent it from ever reoccurring again. This was needles deaths and could had been prevented. Unfortunately, we know the odds and know that we will probably read about another one soon.

I hope the Federal agencies will become involved and start mandating EVOC and stricter regulatory upon whom, ordinances and operations of emergency vehicles. Appearantly, local policies are not strict enough. Could they perform such a task? .. you bet if they recieve federal funding.

R/r 911
 
There were actually 6 people in the ambulance: 2 patients, 3 rescuers DOA, and one survivor.
 
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