Fire based EMS, or EMS as a Third service?

[rmellish]

Branch off of a conversation started in No Transport, No Fee thread. http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=10184



I'm going to maintain my initial point that EMS is fundamentally different from the Fire service, and should be treated as a wholly separate entity, not as part of a Fire service.

 

[WuLabsWuTecH]

This again? I think we've bene over this, but I've never commented so here goes:

They can share resources, I have no problem with they guys sleeping in the same buildings and such to reduce wasted spending, and they can even share manpower. However, only those who want to do both should have to do both. Those that just want to be medics should only have to have medic training, while those who only want to firefight should only have FF training. If someone wants to do both and wants to alternate, that's fine, let him, but no one should be forced to do something he does not really desire to do.

 

[rmellish]

Yeah, I was just trying to branch off before the refusal thread became this discussion.

Unfortunately I think fire based EMS can actually be blamed on a national level for EMS's inability to be recognized as our own separate entity, and other problems.

 

[WuLabsWuTecH]

The alternative though, is that EMS is completely separate and if that were to be, there would be a huge waste of resources. Instead of paying the utility bills for N number of stations, you would have to pay for 2N assumming you want similar response times. Sure some private companies post trucks, but for those on the overnight, you're gonna want beds and a kitchen.

 

[KEVD18]

i prefer a true third service. what i mean by that is a department that is viewed as the equal of both others in a municipality. one with the backing of the city/town/county as if it were the pd or fd.

i agree with the statement that the department should be autonomous. let the canaries write the tickets, the jakes put the wet stuff on the hot stuff and the medics treat the sick and injured.

think about it. when you have people who specialize in one area, they become experts at it. when you force them to be a jack of all trades, their skills fall apart and you have people with average(maybe) skills in 5 different areas instead of being experts at 1.

if its more convinient logistically for the rescue to share quarters with the engine, then so be it.

 

[KEVD18]

The alternative though, is that EMS is completely separate and if that were to be, there would be a huge waste of resources. Instead of paying the utility bills for N number of stations, you would have to pay for 2N assumming you want similar response times. Sure some private companies post trucks, but for those on the overnight, you're gonna want beds and a kitchen.

i dont mean to offend you, but thats small town thinking. big cities have enough ambulances that it would be highly impractical to house them all with fire. theres only so many bays at the fire houses.

on the other hand, big cities have big call volumes, so they do a whole lot of sleeping, even on the overnights.

 

[WuLabsWuTecH]

i dont mean to offend you, but thats small town thinking. big cities have enough ambulances that it would be highly impractical to house them all with fire. theres only so many bays at the fire houses.

on the other hand, big cities have big call volumes, so they do a whole lot of sleeping, even on the overnights.

No offence taken!

Perhaps I just live in an area where each station only covers about 5-8 square miles (averaging 6.6 sqmi per station), but many of our stations have 2-3 medic trucks housed at the FD (the city and surrounding suburbs run all FF/EMT-P's with the exception of Station 111 which has 1 ALS and 1 BLS)

I live in a pretty big city though, and I don't think there is any problem with housing units at the stations. Perhaps you guys have fewer/smaller stations where you are?

 

[reaper]

We are a true third service. Owned and run by the county. Our outskirt trucks are based at fire stations. Our city trucks run high performance EMS(partial system status), but we still house out of fire stations, just move around as needed. So, that argument doesn't always work.

I seen it brought up that FD does extrication, so they should do it all. A lot of EMS services do their own extrication. We did our own, up to a few months ago. We decided to let fire do it in the county. You would not believe how many FD's did not want it and fought not to get it. We had to give all our equipment to them and provide training for their people. So that really is not an argument either.

As I stated before. Some have only seen or worked in a Fire/EMS service, so that is all they know. I have worked both sides and I believe that it is better in the long run to have a county/city run third service that concentrates only on EMS. But, to each his/her own. There will never be total change until the public demands it. That will come with education.

 

[JPINFV]

From this thread: http://emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=10184&page=3

Yet if they undergo the same training as every other EMT and paramedic do, they are trained to do both jobs, then it's foolish to fund two seperate departments when both are equally matched, skill wise, for EMS. Actually being fire fighters are more heavily trained in extracation I would think they are even MORE skillful and useful, EMS wise, then just a plain EMT or Paramedic.

Why not train fire fighters to be police then? Traffic control on scene of an accident is just as important as extrication (of course, there are also calls that don't require extrication. Most of them actually), so it makes sense to make fire fighters police officers and police officers fire fighters under this method of thinking.

 

[VentMedic]

Why not train fire fighters to be police then? Traffic control on scene of an accident is just as important as extrication (of course, there are also calls that don't require extrication. Most of them actually), so it makes sense to make fire fighters police officers and police officers fire fighters under this method of thinking.

Combinations of the wrong hats give you a mess where the "lesser" job from their point of view may take a backseat.

Massachusetts Officers Skipped EMT Courses

http://www.emsresponder.com/article/article.jsp?id=8653&siteSection=1

Steve Landwehr
The Salem News, Beverly, Mass.


--

Dec. 12--HAMILTON -- Police officers who skipped ongoing medical training were engaging in more than just bookkeeping abuses -- they were putting the public's heath at risk, a state official said yesterday.

The Hamilton Police Department, whose officers are all required to be state-certified EMTs, is embroiled in a scandal over falsified medical training records.

Nine of those officers lied about taking basic refresher and other required continuing education classes over the past eight years, according to the state Office of Emergency Medical Services. The agency suspended the town's ambulance license for a year as a result and pulled the nine officers' licenses.

But, the real crime is the misuse of Federal money.


Hamilton police chief put on leave
Officer also allegedly misused grant

http://www.boston.com/news/local/ma...008/12/14/hamilton_police_chief_put_on_leave/


By David Rattigan
Globe Correspondent / December 14, 2008

HAMILTON - Police Chief Walter Cullen has been placed on indefinite administrative leave with pay in the wake of findings that he was involved in falsifying EMT training records and the misuse of a $6,000 federal grant.

 

[JPINFV]

Combinations of the wrong hats give you a mess where the "lesser" job from their point of view may take a backseat.

Cough. Collier County. Cough.

 

[Ridryder911]

I can never understand why we would place EMS in Fire Service. Let's look at the real facts. Fire Service calls is usually less than half of EMS calls. Response time(s) is more crucial than responding to structures (yeah, life should be more important than property). Yet communities still place the emphasis on Fire Services over a system to save a life. Look at of number of available EMS units over fire extinguishment vehicles and the staff to operate them.

How many actual structure fires with those entrapped in structures in comparison to EMS calls involving AMI's, trauma injuries, etc? Do we see a problem? Real versus potential. Yet we still prepare for the "what if" instead of the real events. I am not saying we should not prepare for fire protection, but place the emphasis on what really occurs and what does not. Be realistic.

Why do not have EMS stations proportional to community needs? Why would we ever consider a person whom main job is to fire extinguishment also be able to provide medical care? What? Would we ask the persons repairing a road to be able to do so or a LEO to be the main provider? It makes as much sense as to ask a firefighter to do so. Again, two different professions.

Again, EMS will have to be considered as worthy as law enforcement and fire protection. In number of asked and true responses, it only makes logical sense to be in place as a third party.

Since EMS is operated more as a business, why don't we ask why Fire Service be operated under EMS? Apparently, we can operate on a tighter budget, more efficiently.. something to think about.

R/r 911

 

[karaya]

Since EMS is operated more as a business, why don't we ask why Fire Service be operated under EMS? Apparently, we can operate on a tighter budget, more efficiently.. something to think about.

R/r 911

This may explain why so many new fire chiefs today come from the EMS arm of the department and not the traditional rise through the ranks of the fire arm.