EMTs & Speeding

[Amack]

Do you think that LEOs will give more leniency upon realizing that the person they just bagged for doing 75 in a 65 is an EMT, versus that of somebody otherwise?


Another student and I were talking about this in EMT class. (He wants to be a state cop)



What are your thoughts about this concept of "professional courtesy" ?


Is it ethical, or subtly appropriate?
(Since EMTs and LEOs are in the same profession of public service)

 

[DT4EMS]

Do you think that LEOs will give more leniency upon realizing that the person they just bagged for doing 75 in a 65 is an EMT, versus that of somebody otherwise?


Another student and I were talking about this in EMT class. (He wants to be a state cop)



What are your thoughts about this concept of "professional courtesy" ?


Is it ethical, or subtly appropriate?
(Since EMTs and LEOs are in the same profession of public service)

As an EMT then as a Medic, I never "expected" to get anything. The best advice is to not be a hypocrit. WHen I worked the street as a police officer I stopped several off-duty EMS folks for speeding.

I didn't extend them any different courtesy than what I gave the "average" citizen. ( I wrote about 10 out of every 100 cars I would stop for speeding, the rest were warnings)

I have worked with officers who did in fact issue a summons to EMS that were speeding. Most officers do extend a courtesy............. by if you speed, you may meet the one who doesn't. A speeding ticket on your license can be a bad thing if you are trying to get a job in EMS.

Remember the transfer of Kinetic Energy........... speed does kill.

 

[Emtgirl21]

Oh i got a ticket in my uniform in front of my station for 36 in a 20....which had been until the day before a 35. I had just gotten off work...we had been sooo busy and i just wanted to go to sleep....he didnt care. PUNK

 

[VentMedic]

Do you think that LEOs will give more leniency upon realizing that the person they just bagged for doing 75 in a 65 is an EMT, versus that of somebody otherwise?

I believe you should be held to an even higher standard. If you have worked any MVCs then you should know a little more than "somebody else" about the end results of speeding. Expecting professional courtesy does sound hypocritical and selfish.

What example or message does this give to the public about you as a professional if they see you speeding around town in your POV especially if you are wearing your uniform?

I used to take EMT students from the ER rotation if time allowed and give them a tour of our very large (90 beds) Sub-Acute wing at the hospital. During an hour of helping me "maintain and drain" the "living dead", they get a closer look at the results of kinetic energy. It actually doesn't take that much speed to rearrange the gray matter and make an injury permanent enough to change one's life forever. This may sound harsh, but this week I'm assisting in getting a handsome young 22 y/o placed in a nursing home. It has been determined he is not a candidate for rehab. He too was just going a few miles over the speed limit when another car cut him off.

You may think you know your driving skills, but there are always the person's skills or lack of in the car next to you.

With this age of technology and public "witnesses", I would also think a police officer would be cautious about giving preference to one and not another.

 

[Tincanfireman]

And may I add...

if you are pulled over, don't be an arrogant fool and demand that the cop let you go with a warning just because you work for So-and-So agency/company/whatever and you therefore shouldn't be cited. It makes a bad impression on you, probably won't do a thing about getting the citation changed and probably won't help the reputation of said employer and your co-workers either. Just my .02; your mileage may vary...

 

[VentMedic]

I am going to add that many times LEOs do give professional courtesy to a rescue unit or ambulance that is caught/witnessed speeding. The LEO may place a call directly to the dispatch of that company. This happened occasionally when I was a field supervisor. The LEO's call would be transferred to me. If it was that crew's first offense that I knew about, I would assure the LEO that I would take care of it. If it was a repeat offender, I would tell the LEO that he/she could do whatever necessary when they reached the hospital if loaded with a patient or before if they were endangering safety of themselves and others (this was very rare). I would then make arrangements to get that truck back inservice by pulling someone from a tranport unit or use someone catching up on paperwork/training if necessary. I usually considered both members of the crew guilty since they are partners. Sometimes I would send a mechanic team to drive the truck and crew members back. Both members would then be given a written warning and depending on the severity, may be put back through a remedial driver training course.

 

[knxemt1983]

well I come from a LEO family, and all I will say is that yes they often do give us a break, and depending on the size of the area you work in, you may or may not know the officer personally. Most of the officers in this area see it as a professional courtesy, and will notify the cheif or captain or just let it go.

This does not mean it's ok, ethical or even the right thing and we should not expect it. Contacting the supervisor is good, that lets them know who is driving reckless before it gets someone hurt, and if it is your full time job it gives you a chance to do better since your job could depend on it.

like I said before, we shouldn't expect to get a break, or think they owe us a break because they don't.

 

[Summit]

LEOs almost always give professional courtesy to EMS vehicles although they may call your supervisor.

Some LEOs may sometimes give limited professional courtesy in some circumstances for EMS in their POVs beyond what discretion they might offer to a civilian (it helps to be wearing a uniform).

 

[firecoins]

why are cops pulling over ambulances? Do they pull over fire trucks as well? WTF?

Cops have given me a pass as professional coutesey. Some didn't. Best not to get pulled over to begin with.

 

[Emtgirl21]

If I am loaded with a patient and headed to the hospital and i'm "haulin balls" there is a reason and I will be DANGED if i am pulling over!

 

[MMiz]

I know of some coworkers who have received a ticket while driving to or from work.

Every few months a PD will call us and turn in a unit for speeding or doing something else that wasn't appropriate.

I always thought that I'd be extended a break if I let them know that I taught in the city and also worked as an EMT in the city, but I haven't been pulled over yet.

 

[RedZone]

Deleted my reply.

 

[VentMedic]

why are cops pulling over ambulances? Do they pull over fire trucks as well? WTF?

It's easier for an ambulance to abuse the privilege of speed. I am also going to go out on a limb here, remembering my fire academy days, we were taught how much a fire truck weighs, its imbalances and lack of control if driven recklessly. EVOC for ambulances...not the same. Although, I know first hand at how easily an ambulance can tip and roll.

Believe me, a fire truck driving recklessly will get noticed and has been noticed by the public and LEOs. They are usually headliners in the local news. Speeding ambulances rarely get that much attention in the newspapers unless they hurt or kill someone.

The LEO does not have to pull you over. If you are living in a major city, your speed, vehicle number and face are being recorded by cameras throughout the city. It will then be at the discretion of the city officials as to whether you will be ticketed. The same ambulance and face seen too many times driving at a high rate of speed may be a red flag. If you are involved in an accident, there may be a whole new case precedent if the city knew about your speeding and did nothing. By speeding, I mean more than what your local protocols define for ambulances on emergency calls. No call, well that leaves your tail hangin' out there.

And then to get into your POV and think you should be allowed to speed because you're an EMT!

Being loaded with a patient is exactly why good judgement should be used when running fast to the hospital. There have been literally hundreds of studies done on this during the last 30 years. The few seconds, minute or two saved is not worth your life, the life of another and the patient's life.

I've been to the accidents scenes involving either fire trucks or ambulances. It is not a pretty sight especially if it is a co-worker or friend trapped under the wreckage.

Just use caution and good judgement.

 

[knxemt1983]

very good point, one thing I notice about our evoc is that it is mainly defensive driving, there is some about performance, but just because you are an emt makes it no safer than any other time, also how are you doing your pt good if you are running emergency and have a wreck, it only burns the golden hour even more.

I know we have all heard it a thousand times, but whether we are on the way to a call or transporting from one, we owe it to our pt's and communities to be safe, if we wreck we hurt our pt, or at the least put extra burden on our ems sytem byt taking a truck, and crew out of commission and the other units that have to come to scrape us up. I dont know who here has ever had to work a co-workers wreck, but I have and it is hard to do.

 

[RichmondMedik]

If I am loaded with a patient and headed to the hospital and i'm "haulin balls" there is a reason and I will be DANGED if i am pulling over!

If you are "haulin balls" it won't be long before you are the one in need of the ambulance yourself.

there is absolutly NO reason for a person to speed anywhere in a vehicle that is top heavy and unbalanced

as others have said before " speed Kills " and I always tell people who drive for me " It's not my emergency so don't make it mine"

where do people have to be that is so important nowadays that they need to go 10 - 20 mph over the speed limit

do some research online about how much time is saved by running with lights and sirens -- surprisingly little

We are suppose to be professionals not only in our treatment of patients but how we conduct ourselves in front of John Q. Public

 

[Emtgirl21]

I've never had a complaint about my driving. Knock on wood!!! Would like to see how you drive when your medic is working a cardiac arrest or priority one stabbing to the chest and hollering at you to "get him there now".

 

[VentMedic]

I've never had a complaint about my driving. Knock on wood!!! Would like to see how you drive when your medic is working a cardiac arrest or priority one stabbing to the chest and hollering at you to "get him there now".

Many years ago I learned there were 3 reasons for speed:
1. Obstructed airway that you do not have the skills to alleviate.

2. Uncontrolled blood loss that you can not slow.

3. Medical incompetence or lack of professional confidence in the back. I would then be putting my bid in for a new partner.

One must be able to focus on the patient in order to effectively attempt resuscitation. If the crew in the back is hanging on for their own life or off balance, then care will not be effective. If an EMT or Paramedic is unrestrained and doing compressions, they will easily be thrown off balance and just a sharp turn can severely injure them.

Being able to establish good care for the patient, assess accurately and relay this information clearly to the receiving hospital will be more effective than speed. Trauma and code teams will be able to ready themselves appropriately and THAT will save time.

 

[Ridryder911]

I've never had a complaint about my driving. Knock on wood!!! Would like to see how you drive when your medic is working a cardiac arrest or priority one stabbing to the chest and hollering at you to "get him there now".

I agree with Vent. Do a little basic mathematics. The most you will save is about 3-4 minutes (that is even at double the speed for >15 miles).

If your partner can't handle an arrest ...they need to go back to school. The patient is already dead, they can't get any worse.

The stabbing patient, again the most you are going to save them is about 3-4 minutes... and again, in reality that is not going to save their lives, if they were that severe. Consider this, no matter how severe that patient is .. the surgeon will still do that 3 minute scrub in washing their hands... again, it is the patient's emergency, not theirs. Why increase you & your partners life, the patient's, and especially other drivers?

Personally, there are very, veryfew times I return with lights and sirens. Even in cardiac arrest, I may return without L/S.

Knowledge is the key, not speed.

R/r 911

 

[knxemt1983]

I agree with Vent. Do a little basic mathematics. The most you will save is about 3-4 minutes (that is even at double the speed for >15 miles).

If your partner can't handle an arrest ...they need to go back to school. The patient is already dead, they can't get any worse.

The stabbing patient, again the most you are going to save them is about 3-4 minutes... and again, in reality that is not going to save their lives, if they were that severe. Consider this, no matter how severe that patient is .. the surgeon will still do that 3 minute scrub in washing their hands... again, it is the patient's emergency, not theirs. Why increase you & your partners life, the patient's, and especially other drivers?

Personally, there are very, veryfew times I return with lights and sirens. Even in cardiac arrest, I may return without L/S.

Knowledge is the key, not speed.

R/r 911

I agree with the fact that the speed only saves a few minutes, and more than likely will make no difference with a competent medic. Time is saved with smooth driving and intersection negotiation if you are say in downtown traffic in a city. It is in the pt's best interest to have a medic who knows how to care for them, and a driver who knows how to allow that medic to safely work in the back

 

[jmaccauley]

A few things come to mind when I hear of the "exceptions" to the speed limit. First of all, unless you are in a rural area with good roads and high visability, excessive speed is gambling with your patients life. Second, as someone mentioned, does your EVOC training address excessive speed? If not, you may be trying to drive your rig the same way thay you operate your POV.
Next, the issue of a cardiac patient patient or a knife wound being actively worked in the back. When "Murphy" shows up and you have to slam on the brakes or otherwise perform some emergency evasive maneuver, you probably just created more problems for your patient. I have done tests in several cities about response time going code or driving at posted speeds. There is very little difference in time. On the other hand, just the sound of our siren tends to elevate our heart rate and adrenaline to the point where you are driving with tunnel vision, and much slower reactionary ability.
As for professional courtesy, most people who exhibit courtesy receive courtesy. Cops do have a good relationship with other public safety personnel, but it's not to be counted on as a "given."