emt-b meds

[Littlebit]

I normally just browse through EMS forums- Sometimes I learn -sometimes I am amused but I usually don't offer a response. I just feel a need to respond to the chatter regarding EMT-B's and meds. There are some EMT-B's that know more about meds than an I or a P- there are some that can out do an EMT-P in a heartbeat. I think some of you came down pretty hard on the spelling issue- granted in a run report I would expect all of the spelling to be correct but this is a friendly forum- right? When a person joins this community it says "we're a friendly bunch of EMS professionals"
I have worked with FR-B's-I's and P's and some take the responsibility very seriously and some just like the sirens- I don't think spelling on a forum has anything to do with it.
Littlebit

 

[Ridryder911]

To prevent from hijacking this thread. I started another posts in regards to the deviated subject.

http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?p=59688#post59688

R/r 911

 

[skyemt]

this thread spun off when akflightmedic pointed out that out of 8 meds, 3 were misspelled...

the most amazing thing is that 4 out of 8 were misspelled, not 3...
narcon, gluctagon, albuteral, asprin.

so, akflightmedic, you can sit in the corner with emt/ff71185!

 

[reaper]

emt/ff71185,
What state do you work on? I am just wondering because I have never seen any where that lets EMT-B's give injections.

If you give NARCAN to OD what will you do when that pt goes into seizures?
What if you put him into a lethal arrhythmia?

 

[emt/ff71185]

Nod. It's EMT-Bs, not B's.

With this post I do believe that every single word in my original thread has been ridiculed. I would like to move on and not be judged from now on as the unprofessional "EMT-B" who made a mistake in not thinking when spelling my meds in a forum. If I had known it would have brought out the dark side of so many of you than I would have just kept my mouth shut or treated this forum like a patient report.

That being said...

I do understand most of the points you all have made and will learn from them, I just do not appreciate some of the hypocritical statements and the extent of the judging on my whole outlook of my professional life based on one post.

We all share a very stressful career; let's not take the not-so-important things quite so seriously.

 

[emt/ff71185]

emt/ff71185,
What state do you work on? I am just wondering because I have never seen any where that lets EMT-B's give injections.

If you give NARCAN to OD what will you do when that pt goes into seizures?
What if you put him into a lethal arrhythmia?

I work in central IL. We can give 2mg NARCAN IN. Is this amount enough to cause seizures or lethal arrhythmia? We were not informed of this in class, only that it works pretty quickly and that to be prepared to deal with the patient being mad at you ruining there high.

 

[reaper]

Now this is not against you.

This is what the major discussions on this subject are about. You are trained to a skill and told to preform the skill. But, you are not taught about the drug or the understanding of how it works.

This is why no one below a paramedic level should be administering drugs. You must have the full knowledge of how it works, what it does to the body and how it interacts with other drugs or problems. You must have a full grasp of A&P and Pharmacology to learn this.

This is the biggest point most are trying to make here. Like the old saying,
"once you push a med, you can't take it back". So you better be dam sure you know for sure that this is what the pt needs.

 

[emt/ff71185]

I agree completely. As I’ve stated before in other threads. I really hate how we just get rushed through this course and then are in charge of real lives. We really learn only once a patient's life is on the line. I have absolutely no arguments with you on that one. I am currently enrolled to take the Paramedic course starting in January for this reason and am also currently pursuing my BCN because you can never know too much when it comes to the chance to save a life.

The problem is I haven't had a chance to get that far yet so I am at the stage where I have to follow protocols that I can only fully understand if I do my own research and pursue my own education outside of course work.

 

[BBFDMedic28]

.

As far as basics carrying medications....they shouldn't. A 120 advanced first aid course is not sufficient enough education to be handing out medications. Many paramedics have spent more time sitting through anatomy and physiology then the time spent in the EMT-basic program to learn how the human body functions. Without this understanding, you can't even begin to understand how all of those medications really work and what they're doing. Not to mention that many of those medications have side effects that can't be effectively monitored or controlled by a BLS provider.

Feel free to search and I'm sure you'll come up with countless posts about EMT-Basic's administering medications, as well as education in our field and you'll probably even find some about spelling, punctuation and grammar (which believe it or not is really important).

Please try to give the impression that our profession is an educated group. Not a group just getting by.

Shane
NREMT-P

My turn for a soap box. First of all I hope everything I am about to say is spelled correctly...god for bid I turn human and make a mistake.
Second- "Advanced First Aid"? WTF? Do EMT-Bs have as much education as EMT-Ps? No. But we are definately more qualified than advanced first aid.
Third- Sure lets try to give the impression that we are educated even though in the same post it was mentioned that EMT-Bs were only "Advanced First Aid". Sure that makes tons of sense...not
Fourth- Since When is an answer such as "That topic has already been discussed" not enough? Why go way off topic and ridicule? That is rediculous.
Thats all.
BTW to the original poster.....Whoever you are send me a private message and I will be glad to tell you about the meds we carry on the box.

 

[BBFDMedic28]

My deepest apologies...one for the double post and two God was not capitaized in my above post. I just noticed this.

 

[akflightmedic]

this thread spun off when akflightmedic pointed out that out of 8 meds, 3 were misspelled...

the most amazing thing is that 4 out of 8 were misspelled, not 3...
narcon, gluctagon, albuteral, asprin.

so, akflightmedic, you can sit in the corner with emt/ff71185!

Hey, I always take my spelling hits...as anyone that knows me from here or another forum where I frequent, I have never hid the fact that I am dyslexic.

I refuse to use spellcheck because of it. I force myself to review and review until I get it right. I am very tough and critical on myself. As you can see, I even edited once in my original post cause I caught an error. Yes, I did skim over aspirin and on recheck it appeared correct.

Part of the reason for me skimming over it was I had lost interest. Once I see a post filled with spelling errors or poor grammar, I totaly lose any interest.

My point is when I see a post such as that, there is zero excuse for it. One word mispelled is ok as it might be a typo, fat fingers, or something; however, when you rattle off each drug that you carry and administer but can not spell any of them properly, therein lies my issue. I still say had any of the others been spelled out in their entirety, the count would be higher.

If I can take the time with a legitimate condition and ensure my posts and my reports are accurate, I expect the same if not better from someone who does not have a condition. It all reflects on us as a profession and we must display some accuracy in our interactions if we are ever to get any type of credibility and semblance of professionalism.

Go to student doctor.net or a nurse forum and see if they are lazy and apathetic cause it is just a forum or their day off...

 

[medic001918]

Let's take your post section by section.

My turn for a soap box. First of all I hope everything I am about to say is spelled correctly...god for bid I turn human and make a mistake.

This spelling issue is not about a simple spelling error, it's about misspelling medications that are commonly administered. There's a significant difference between the two. Medications errors have been committed in the healthcare profession due to misspellings.

Second- "Advanced First Aid"? WTF? Do EMT-Bs have as much education as EMT-Ps? No. But we are definately more qualified than advanced first aid.[/QUOTE[

How is an EMT more qualified than advanced first aid? Please share with us. You can provide oxygen, and hold direct pressure. The assessment and critical thinking skills provided in most EMT-Basic programs is poor at best in it's current form. The anatomy & physiology is not there to perform proper assessments. Without being able to perform a proper assessment and understanding of how the human body works, the information gained is of little value. If you don't believe me, consider reading the current curriculum. For the most part, every complaint gets "high flow oxygen, rapid transport and call a medic." I've seen this trend continue. Look at the dumbing down of CPR and the EMT program itself. Compare the program now to someone who's had their card for fifteen or twenty years. There's a huge difference in what was taught. The EMT-Basic program really is little more than advanced first aid. I'm sorry that offends you.

Third- Sure lets try to give the impression that we are educated even though in the same post it was mentioned that EMT-Bs were only "Advanced First Aid". Sure that makes tons of sense...not

In it's current form, the program is nothing to be proud of. The industry as a whole could use to be restructured and requirements changed. All the way from EMT-Basic to Paramedic. I won't leave myself out of it. I'm in favor of raising the standards across the board.

Fourth- Since When is an answer such as "That topic has already been discussed" not enough? Why go way off topic and ridicule? That is rediculous.

If you're going to quote me, please do it correctly. Is what I said was this:

Feel free to search and I'm sure you'll come up with countless posts about EMT-Basic's administering medications, as well as education in our field and you'll probably even find some about spelling, punctuation and grammar (which believe it or not is really important).

So is what I was doing was to point someone to a means of finding answers to their question. These topics (EMT-Basics giving medications, education, spelling, grammar and punctuation) have been discussed in the past and if one wanted more information on any of those topics, the search feature would yield it. One could easily search this forum or nearly any other active EMS forum and find information.

Thats all.
BTW to the original poster.....Whoever you are send me a private message and I will be glad to tell you about the meds we carry on the box.

If you feel so strongly that the EMT-Basic program is more than advanced first aid, why not share your medications with us to be discussed? We can all discuss our feelings on the issue?

And to the OP who posted this question:

We can give 2mg NARCAN IN. Is this amount enough to cause seizures or lethal arrhythmia? We were not informed of this in class, only that it works pretty quickly and that to be prepared to deal with the patient being mad at you ruining there high.

A 2mg dose of narcan is a rather high dose and is enough to cause seizures or other common side effects. Many providers start with 0.4mg or 0.8mg and titrate to effect. High doses of narcan cause vomiting as well, and in a patient with altered mental status, aspiration is always a concern. I'm not picking on you, but this is a great example of the limited education provided and how it is not really sufficient to administer medications. That's not picking on you at all, so please don't take it that way.

The biggest difference between a paramedic and a basic is assessment and an understanding of the human body and how it works. By understanding the human body, you can understand how your pharmacodynamics work and what to expect out of giving medications. If one wants to take steps towards being an EMT, my suggestion is to take a college level anatomy & physiology course. When you understand how the body works while functioning normally, you can gather more information from your assessments about when it's not functioning normally and how your interventions interact with the human body.

Shane
NREMT-P

 

[Ridryder911]

I smell a thread being locked..

R/r 911

 

[indygirl14]

This thread is making me re-think my decision to go into EMT school...who would want to after reading that after investing my time and money, I would be nothing more than a "lowly EMT-B" or "advanced first aid."....

You guys are doing zero to help your profession out. Zero.

You have made your point -- how long are we going to keep hammering away at it? I'm also re-thinking my decision to join this forum. There is absolutely nothing helpful nor friendly going on in this post anymore-- just a whole lot of reaming. Lock it and move on...please!

 

[Ridryder911]

This thread is making me re-think my decision to go into EMT school...who would want to after reading that after investing my time and money, I would be nothing more than a "lowly EMT-B" or "advanced first aid."....

So your not really in EMS? You have not even attended or even began any really part of the system yet.

Although you have determined an opinion about the profession on what it involves or making a differential between license and certification levels. So you really would not know as of yet, if there is a difference between advanced first aid and EMT, really?

This would be similar to me discussing differences in an plumbers forum between the levels of journeymen and a plumber. Not really a clue on the profession or the workings within it.

The bad thing about forums is it allows everyone to view any speciality, profession, from inside. As well many representing themselves as being from within the speciality, when they really are not.

The good thing about forums is that it opens debate within the profession, as well as exposure of EMS to others. With this also comes part of the real life of medicine and EMS. It is a job (paid or not). The job's main focus is to attempt to save lives and that is usually about all most will agree upon. With it comes different personalities and different ideas of how, what should be done. Like all professions, or even big families there is always internal discussions, turmoil, on a day to day operations. This is life.. I have yet seen any group work harmonious in any profession, especially in medicine.

If this small "bickering" upsets you, I can assure you there is much more deeper and harsher arguments in EMS units, squad stations, O.R.'s, ICU's and definitely in ER's everyday. Be it right or wrong, it occurs. This is the way things get changed and evolves, otherwise it would be pretty stagnant.

So yes, the advantage of about this forum, we are much nicer here than it is in real life. You do get to see what you will be getting yourself into. You do get observe debate about care, the profession, and even respect from others. You will not be entering the profession blindly.

R/r 911

 

[VentMedic]

This thread is making me re-think my decision to go into EMT school...who would want to after reading that after investing my time and money, I would be nothing more than a "lowly EMT-B" or "advanced first aid."....

You guys are doing zero to help your profession out. Zero.

You have made your point -- how long are we going to keep hammering away at it? I'm also re-thinking my decision to join this forum. There is absolutely nothing helpful nor friendly going on in this post anymore-- just a whole lot of reaming. Lock it and move on...please!

Being an EMT can be just the beginning of a great career in medicine. Sure there are many people out there who remain an EMT-Basic for a variety of reasons and are very good and comfortable in their profession. They also present a pride in what they can do and still realize their limitations.

As an EMT you will gain experience with patients. If you use the opportunity well, you will meet many people in many different healthcare professions to show you a whole world of fascinating medicine.

If you stay certified as an EMT-B, it doesn't mean your knowledge can not expand beyond that. Even if you are not able to perform all of the skills of an advanced level, you can still gain a better insight on any patient situation.

There are several of us here who have many years of education invested with a variety of degrees and credentials. And yet, we are still taking more classes and trying to keep up with an ever changing and exciting field.

You will only be a "lowly EMT-B" if you allow yourself to remain that in your own mind. In any profession, there will always be a pecking order of hierachy in the ranks. You have the choice to move on in credentials, education and knowledge. Many of the people here, myself included, are pro education. We want people to think about what they are doing and why. When you are working as an EMT, you will find that you will have to justify what you did to the patient and not just say "it's in the protocols so we can". Physicians, nurses, other healthcare professionals, and law enforcement officiers may all want answers. These forums are a good place to ask questions and respond to questions that you may have to answer somewhere later in your career. You may read what sounds like rude and demeaning responses to you now when you are just starting out, but in the world of medicine they may play a purpose. Being able to respond to those remarks or justify your actions professionally either here on these forums or in the field is just part of any medical career. The more responsibility you are given, the more understanding of that responsibility should be expected.

 

[skyemt]

well, in my county, emt-b's can carry oral glucose, epi-pens, albuterol (to be given via nebulizer) aspirin, O2 (obviously), and we can assist a pt with their own NTG...

i am an EMT-B, know the physiology and pharmacodynamics of each of these meds... the idea that emt-b's should not give meds is foolish...

Reaper, i am quite sure my knowledge of these meds is adequate...
and may save a pt one day if ALS is not available, which is often in many parts of the country...

i'm pretty sure it is the blanket generalizations, like the one reaper made, that rankles people...

and really, if someone in my family needed meds from an emt, i'm not sure how comfortable i'd be if the emt couldn't spell half the meds he carried... is that personal? maybe, maybe not... but i'm sure deep down, everyone reading these threads would feel the same way... if that person is really the worlds best emt, then he is doing himself an injustice with the spelling... just the way it is...

 

[DisasterMedTech]

emt/ff71185,
What state do you work on? I am just wondering because I have never seen any where that lets EMT-B's give injections.

If you give NARCAN to OD what will you do when that pt goes into seizures?
What if you put him into a lethal arrhythmia?

EMT-Basics are allowed by protocol to give glucagon via IM injection in Illinois. Giving an IM injection isnt rocket science and the medic determines if it is to be given and the dose. The Basic draws up the medication, the Paramedic confirms the 5 Rights and the Basic puts the needle in the muscle. The Basic is not making the decision to give the drug, but rather simply administering the injection per medical control orders under the supervision of Paramedic.

 

[DisasterMedTech]

Because, it is an excuse to get by. Sorry, this is not directed at one particular person. I hear the same thing when asking about pathophysiology questions.. "Hey, I am just a Paramedic"...

Whenever and if ever; we really want to be a profession with professionals, then we will demand such. Sorry, one does not "forget" how to read or write when they are off duty. As others have suggested one is judged by their communication skills, in their profession or common use. This is NOT an EMT/B versus EMT/P thing, all this was taught in elementary grade school!

*Ironically, this forum has finally started endorsing common grammar and spelling. I took a lot of bruising, but it was worth it !

R/r 911

It would seem to me that you shouldn't be bashing anyone for their grammar, use of punctuation, etc. I personally think it's not worth mentioning in general unless it impairs the readers' ability to understand the post. I count 5 grammatical and one spelling error in the above quoted posting authored by you and yet you are consistently among the most critical of the way in which others expressive themselves in written form. Perhaps it would be wise to work on your own writing and not worry quite so much about what others are doing. And I know THAT was taught in "grammar elementary" school because I used to teach it to my own students.

 

[indygirl14]

I have several family members involved in EMS, so no, I'm not going into this blindly, and yes, I do know the difference between advanced first aid and EMT-B, but thanks for checking! I have spent many more hours riding along with services than is typically required of an EMT-B student to get their certification.

Oh, and trust me, I can handle the bickering -- I work in motor sports. I deal with some pretty big egos on a daily basis.

Where have I misrepresented myself? I listed "student" because that is what I am. When I signed up, I was in the middle of taking my online CPR for the Professional Rescuer course, am getting ready to start my First Responder course and am spending every possible minute on an ambulance. So, where that doesn't make me a student, please let me know.

I simply think that you guys have let this get out of control...even you R/R, you said that you "smell a thread being locked."