EMS and Unions

[46Young]

Good for Canada! EMS will have to stand together or accept what is, is what will be. Wages have not met with increased educational demands or its costs so far. Both of which have risen steadily over the last 10 years.

That's the point that I'm trying to make. Education alone won't have much of an impact. Unions alone are hit or miss, but offer the chance to make things better by leveling the playing field with management. Put proper education together with unions or other strong political organization and things will come together nicely. Who knows, maybe they can put fire service unions to shame!

What I've been saying is that in the interim proper union representation should allow you to achieve the best possible outcome when going up against the local government and/or employer. Not miracles, but the best possible outcome for the employees given the circumstances, whatever they may be.

 

[Ridryder911]

Good for Canada! EMS will have to stand together or accept what is, is what will be. Wages have not met with increased educational demands or its costs so far. Both of which have risen steadily over the last 10 years.

Good for Canada, but look at their educational system that is also associated. The pay has equaled the educational level.

Really comparing yourself with Canada's levels of EMS is ludicrous when their basic level has almost education as the Paramedic level does of the U.S. counterpart.

Again, speak about EMS when you have learned the facts.

R/r 911

 

[46Young]

Good for Canada, but look at their educational system that is also associated. The pay has equaled the educational level.

Really comparing yourself with Canada's levels of EMS is ludicrous when their basic level has almost education as the Paramedic level does of the U.S. counterpart.

Again, speak about EMS when you have learned the facts.

R/r 911

When proper educational requirements are established, what is the plan of action to increase salary, benefits, conditions, etc? How will this be achieved?

 

[triemal04]

Drop the profanity and attitude.

No. I'll keep the profanity as someone who has to pay such exorbitant dues really is a poor :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored:. The attitude...if by that you mean requesting that people (you) show the validity behind your claims and actually back up some statements with facts...no...and it's not attitude, just keeping everyone honest.

SEIU? Teamsters? And even IAFF or a Police union are considered unions for those with a "trade" and SEIU usually respresents those who do not require a certification or license in healthcare. $150 -$250 is often the going rate for a union that represents licensed professional healthcare workers or those in the tech industries. But then, those with higher education usually choose collectively in a facility not to be unionized. The Evironmental Technicians (Housekeeping) belong to SEIU and the RTS (or other allied heathcare professionals) and RNs are nonunion at many hospitals in my area. If the hospital is a union shop as you will find in union states, the licensed professional staff will choose to go with a union that specializes in their own profession rather then go with a union representing a service employee making 1/3 the wage and who job has no education, initial or ongoing, requirements. Yes, they could join SEIU and pay only $60 but what type of representation would they get? Very little if any for their profession or recognition for their education is in the bargaining.

This is sort of what I was getting at and why union dues could potentially be very high; while we're at it, mind sharing which union or local has to pay $200/month? Like to see if there is one. There are some unions where the national/international level requires that a certain percent of the workers base pay is contributed to them; usually it's not much, around .5% or 1%. But, for someone in a high paying job, that could potentially be a large dollar amount, though in reality it's not a big chunk of their pay; if you're making 200K a year, $200 a month ain't much. So...which union is it that charges $200 a month in dues?

It is difficult to have those who do not need additional education to bargain for a licensed professional employee's education days and allowance for CEUs/conferences on top of what is traditionally allowed for college classes for everyone. If the typical employee for SEIU is making $12/hour and you as a professional is making $45/hour, do you think bargaining for raises will be fair? Many will argue in terms of a set monetary value like $1.00/hour/year and maybe a Christmas bonus where as the profession staff would prefer a percentage increase each year. 4%/year would benefit the professional wage but would not be as attractive to those at a lower wage status.

This is the other part to that. Simple saying that someone pays $200 a month in dues (who by the way) without also mentioning what they make is a bit disingenuous; be like saying you make 100K a year without OT but leaving out the high cost of living. $200 a month is not the same as it is to someone making $45/hr as it is to someone making $12/hr. And who pays $200 a month in dues?

If EMS wants to be represented by a union, it should be by one that is looking out for the best interest of the profession and those in EMS should start looking towards becoming healthcare professionals. The union officials for those considered to be a service (SEIU) or trade union will rarely have respect for the job the people are doing but are just doing their own job giving the same generic speech at contract negotiations they give across the board. At least the unions that represent RNs and a few other professional healthcare unions are ususally ran by members of that profession and address issues specific to nurses or whatever profession.

I wholeheartedly agree. For a union to truly represent it's members they need to be fully informed about what it is the members do and willing to back them 100% in improving their job on a national level. EMS systems that get the Teamsters to represent them...never quite got that one.

reaper was replying to the FF from California. Due to the cost of living in that area, many do need 2 or 3 jobs or do large amounts of OT as the OP had stated before. Right now CA, as well as other states, is scrutinizing the amount of OT done by the FDs for both budget and safety reasons. Those that got into a bad real estate market are definitely scrambling for hours to keep their house. If there are no cost of living problems or other issues in you area, consider yourself lucky. However, some may not be revealing their financial problems to you since you might be one to be very critical of them.

Funny, I thought he was talking about firefighters in the Carolinas...guess that why saying "That's going to be specific to each situation" was important. The cost of living in my specific area isn't that great; luckily we have a good contract with decent pay rates so it's not a huge issue.

So anyway. Making claims, especially on an anonymous internet forum is very easy. It's harder, apparently, to make sure those claims are true, and back them up with facts. For instance, I'd really like to know which union is paying $200/month in dues...I'm not saying that it couldn't happen, just that I like you to prove what you said isn't hyperbole, rumor and conjecture.

 

[triemal04]

Here in Canada a majority if not all are members of unions. Here in the NWT all health care with the exception of physicians are members of the Union of Northern Workers, And that union is a component of a even bigger union called Public Service Alliance of Canada.

What!? You mean well educated people formed a union and continue to gain new members? How is that possible? Yes, that was sarcasm.

Good for Canada, but look at their educational system that is also associated. The pay has equaled the educational level.

Really comparing yourself with Canada's levels of EMS is ludicrous when their basic level has almost education as the Paramedic level does of the U.S. counterpart.

Again, speak about EMS when you have learned the facts.

R/r 911

I'll say it again: EMS needs to increase it's educational levels, no question there. But simple increasing standards and nothing else WILL NOT cause a change in working conditions or pay; Oregon has required a degree for 10 years now...guess what, the average starting pay (while higher than abominations for pay like CA or PA) is still not close to what paramedics should be paid. Realistically it wouldn't even be this high except for the numerous fire-based services.

If you really want change then there needs to be an advocacy group that lobbies at all levels for improvement. Does it have to be a union? No; while I'm pro-union and the benefits to having one are great, as long as someone was doing this well it'd be much better than nothing. To only focus on education and leave out all the other issues that face EMS and contribute to low pay...disgusting and willfully turning a blind eye.

 

[rescue99]

Good for Canada, but look at their educational system that is also associated. The pay has equaled the educational level.

Really comparing yourself with Canada's levels of EMS is ludicrous when their basic level has almost education as the Paramedic level does of the U.S. counterpart.

Again, speak about EMS when you have learned the facts.

R/r 911

Not gonna get into this debate. I think I know a bit more about union organization and negotiations than most in here and my point wasn't what Canada may or may not have in the way of more or less education. Organized labor is most a major force in pushing for higher standards in education, safety and welfare on the job. EMS is no acception. Follow the history of organized labor and see just how far we've come from where we were before there was worker representation. By the way...Happy Labor Day coming up!

 

[Ridryder911]

..... Follow the history of organized labor ...

Do you really want to open that can of worms?

R/r 911

 

[rescue99]

Not gonna get into this debate. I think I know a bit more about union organization and negotiations than most in here and my point wasn't what Canada may or may not have in the way of more or less education. Organized labor is most a major force in pushing for higher standards in education, safety and welfare on the job. EMS is no acception. Follow the history of organized labor and see just how far we've come from where we were before there was worker representation. By the way...Happy Labor Day coming up!

spell check in reverse... organized labor is "a" major force. Lobbying for safety needles for instance. Thank the IAEP for being on the side of those it represents. Might sound small but to some folk but...it took a long time and a lot of work to get the mandate through all the right doors.

 

[Level1pedstech]

As a member of the teamsters I pay 50.00 per month as a member of SEIU I pay 40.00 per month. I am really interested to see who is getting bent over for 200.00 a month in dues.

Your contract with any union is only as good as the effort you put into negotiations. Labor and management must be in the position to bargain in good faith and not ask for the world while offering little to the other side of the table. I have sweated through a few contract re-negotiations and in the end we always have come out ahead. We have not had a strike since 1994 and I hope it stays that way.

Just because you secure representation does not automatically guarantee you a stellar package. I know of several places with teamster representation that really don't get near what you would think they deserve in the way of pay and other compensation. When I first joined the teamsters I thought only truck drivers and warehouse people were teamsters. I was really surprised how many trades had teamster representation. Here in Portland AMR on both sides of the river,WA state patrol and many smaller law enforcement agencies are members of the teamsters.

In other threads I see the call for higher education for all levels but no one mentions an increase in what can only be called garbage wages for most providers. I know there are exceptions so dont bother pointing that out. For the most part EMT's whether basic or medic are grossly under compensated and when you start requiring more education without backing it with better compensation you are going to have big problems. I dont think the pointy heads have thought things thru to the finish. If you think your pay sucks now wait until your education level is that of someone making 30.00 an hour as an RN and your still making 12.00-15.00. You get the point.

I dont think most people look at the whole package when they think of compensation, I think they look at the base pay(hourly or salary) without taking into consideration the other equally important factors. Time for a basic lesson in compensation. When we speak of compensation there are many factors to consider base pay,health and welfare,retirement and vacation pay. I am using factors contained in most union contracts there may be more depending on your unique situation. The base pay is a given, you want the best you can get with overtime, aim high from the start . Health and welfare will be different every where but you want to shoot for full family coverage including medical,dental and vision. You can not put a price on good health insurance but the coverage I have would run me around 800.00 per month on the open market if I had to provide it myself, that does not include the dental and vision. Retirement is something most people dont think about until they are near the event. No one wants to have to work any longer than they need to,working after retirement is a choice some people make and that's great but pulling the plug early from your 25 year job with a nice monthly check is priceless. We get 5.00 per hour up to 40 hours a week put into our retirement by the company,that's in addition to our base pay. In other words the company funds my retirement 100%. I think its fair and it goes up each year. Of course there are many options for self funding but that's your choice. Vacations are essential to your health and well being, we max out at six weeks paid at 1/52 of the previous years earnings.

I do think that private and public Fire/EMS are good candidates for union representation and I encourage anyone who wishes to secure representation do so. Organizing is a big effort but it can be done, all unions have paid organizers who will be glad to help in your effort. Don't be discouraged buy the anti union propaganda like 200.00 per month dues. With all the calls for increased education and better training you all need to be paid what your worth. In closing I must admit I'm not a big flag waving union guy it really goes against my conservative leanings but I realize some trades need good representation and someone to make sure management walks the line. It has worked well for me in my teamster job and I hope to see more union activity in Fire/EMS in the future. We may not all agree on all issues and the threads can get heated but I hold great professional respect for each and everyone of you and only want the very best for you and your families.

 

[rescue99]

Do you really want to open that can of worms?

R/r 911

Not really. I prefer to debate with people who actually does union organizing and has negotiated contracts, specifically for EMS. Did I mention I DO???

 

[guardian528]

"cap' you know i'm not a pro-union guy"

name that movie

 

[PotatoMedic]

"cap' you know i'm not a pro-union guy"

name that movie

Meow that's an easy one. SUPER TROOPERS!!!! ahh I have watched that movie way to many times...

 

[Ridryder911]

As a member of the teamsters I pay 50.00 per month as a member of SEIU I pay 40.00 per month. I am really interested to see who is getting bent over for 200.00 a month in dues.

Your contract with any union is only as good as the effort you put into negotiations. Labor and management must be in the position to bargain in good faith and not ask for the world while offering little to the other side of the table. I have sweated through a few contract re-negotiations and in the end we always have come out ahead. We have not had a strike since 1994 and I hope it stays that way.

Just because you secure representation does not automatically guarantee you a stellar package. I know of several places with teamster representation that really don't get near what you would think they deserve in the way of pay and other compensation. When I first joined the teamsters I thought only truck drivers and warehouse people were teamsters. I was really surprised how many trades had teamster representation. Here in Portland AMR on both sides of the river,WA state patrol and many smaller law enforcement agencies are members of the teamsters.

In other threads I see the call for higher education for all levels but no one mentions an increase in what can only be called garbage wages for most providers. I know there are exceptions so dont bother pointing that out. For the most part EMT's whether basic or medic are grossly under compensated and when you start requiring more education without backing it with better compensation you are going to have big problems. I dont think the pointy heads have thought things thru to the finish. If you think your pay sucks now wait until your education level is that of someone making 30.00 an hour as an RN and your still making 12.00-15.00. You get the point.

I dont think most people look at the whole package when they think of compensation, I think they look at the base pay(hourly or salary) without taking into consideration the other equally important factors. Time for a basic lesson in compensation. When we speak of compensation there are many factors to consider base pay,health and welfare,retirement and vacation pay. I am using factors contained in most union contracts there may be more depending on your unique situation. The base pay is a given, you want the best you can get with overtime, aim high from the start . Health and welfare will be different every where but you want to shoot for full family coverage including medical,dental and vision. You can not put a price on good health insurance but the coverage I have would run me around 800.00 per month on the open market if I had to provide it myself, that does not include the dental and vision. Retirement is something most people dont think about until they are near the event. No one wants to have to work any longer than they need to,working after retirement is a choice some people make and that's great but pulling the plug early from your 25 year job with a nice monthly check is priceless. We get 5.00 per hour up to 40 hours a week put into our retirement by the company,that's in addition to our base pay. In other words the company funds my retirement 100%. I think its fair and it goes up each year. Of course there are many options for self funding but that's your choice. Vacations are essential to your health and well being, we max out at six weeks paid at 1/52 of the previous years earnings.

I do think that private and public Fire/EMS are good candidates for union representation and I encourage anyone who wishes to secure representation do so. Organizing is a big effort but it can be done, all unions have paid organizers who will be glad to help in your effort. Don't be discouraged buy the anti union propaganda like 200.00 per month dues. With all the calls for increased education and better training you all need to be paid what your worth. In closing I must admit I'm not a big flag waving union guy it really goes against my conservative leanings but I realize some trades need good representation and someone to make sure management walks the line. It has worked well for me in my teamster job and I hope to see more union activity in Fire/EMS in the future. We may not all agree on all issues and the threads can get heated but I hold great professional respect for each and everyone of you and only want the very best for you and your families.

Again, all great and dandy but who is going to pay for such services and where is the money going to come from? Just because a service has a union does not mean such providers can afford to provide such benefits and pay again what many of those pro union are still failing to provide answers to. The money has to come from somewhere!

Since the receiving payments come in and are usually fixed means. An EMS is only going to receive up to about 80% of reimbursement rates. No matter if they have a union or non-union, and again what does not come in cannot go out! It's not rocket science.

This means one has to attach to tax or municipal fee revenue which again is leeching off those that are not utilizing or needing the services and in today's economy and high unemployment is not the most favorable method at this time. If the city revenue per tax base is decreased; how does the union propose to make up the difference? Where is the "magic money" and funding going to appear from?

No matter if there were union representation or not monies to fund such benefits have to exist prior to dispersing. Sure I am in favor of high salaries, benefits and all the whistles and glamour but simple logic is that the money has to exist before one can provide it.

This is why the education emphasis is so important. The payment structure of reimbursement (monies coming in) is based upon the need and speciality of those services. This is why those that manage Fire have a poor understanding of health care management. The committees that determine rate/fee reimbursement ratios do so on certain criteria and none of that has to do with unionization or the needs of the providers. Rather it does have demand of care needed, and the level of education, the expertise, and the level of care provided by the providers. If an increase of payment structure was to increase then monies could be shifted .. hence something is there to distribute.

Let's not put the cart before the horse. Again, I do recognize the need of better working conditions and pay but as well recognize basic philosophy of if there is no money in the bank one cannot distribute the wealth.

If it takes unions to be able obtain benefits for EMS, I am for it as long as the money is there to provide those services.
R/r 911

 

[rescue99]

Rid, ya keep arguing education as if nobody hears you say it! Not a soul denies training levels need to be and ARE on the rise. Maybe you haven't looked at today's courses very closely. They have changed and continue to change, even at the MFR level!! The level of knowledge for EMS providers has steadily gotten deeper in depth and breadth.

You also misunderstand, or shall we say, try to mislead what all union / employer negotiations accomplish. While yes, wages & bennies are a subject, safety, education, welfare and policy language rank higher on the list of union priorities. No jobs, no dues...pretty simple! I would say that job cuts then policy language are the 2 most argued subjects at any table. Certainly causes the most heated debates!

Wages and benefits (specifically health/retirement) are the last fought over because like two cats in a sack, it's the mouse "employers", not employees want the most. Employees are typically uninterested in the inner workings of negotiations and have a tendency to believe whatever is said the loudest and most often. In the months and year+ before negotiations, the routine is to begin crying poor and make cut backs in all the right places so employees see just how strapped a company is. It's a game with some truth mixed in.

Where's the real truth on wages? Well, the truth comes in is in the actual numbers. Those numbers are hashed over the table winding up with contracts getting a more equal to cost of living rise in compensation at best. Unions hold out a wild card its membership may need to sacrifice in order to maintain wages, benefits and above all, jobs. Unions will trade starting wages for jobs if that's in the best interest of its membership which is pretty much why starting wages are so low compared to today's COL. On average, we've seen starting wages dive or at best, stay the same in this country for the last 20+ years while the COL has only risen.

The reality is, unions are team oriented plain and simple. If a company thrives, employees thrive. Unions don't get OR keep the support they once had because it's the employees, not employers that have had to give up just to have a job at all. Of course, scared workers blame their unions but, what we have to look at is how our whole economy has changed universally and how this impacts local economy. Local being the key. Big hint...EMS is local and we can't be shipped to third world countries. We're safe as an occupation that is greatly evolving. The IAFF has long figured out their presence and when EMS in this country realizes we're pretty much here for the long haul....I hope it too will become more interested in fighting for a real future.