Distance to Hospital

I was under the impression that you can't balance bill Medicare patients.

I think it is allowed because the patient is deliberately doing something outside of their coverage. Like requesting a medication that isn't on the formulary, or demanding a more expensive test than the one the doctor says is indicated.

Say you are 5 miles from the closest appropriate hospital, and 13 miles from the one the patient wants to go to. They get billed for the distance past the appropriate facility, so in this example 8 miles.
 
Even if not, the vast majority of the time in my experience, the patients doctor is for a specific problem unrelated to the 'emergency' that they called 911 for, and therefore not likely that the doctor would even know the patient went.

Who's going to take care of the patient once the patient is admitted to the hospital? It surely isn't going to be the emergency physician.
 
Does the medical staff at one hospital have reciprocal privileges at the other hospital?

Not to speak for Linuss, but I may be a little more familiar than he is.

Yes and no, depending on if they want privileges at both places. There's also a fair number of independent (as in not tied to this particular system) and FM (apparently not allowed admitting privileges in that system) docs that don't have privileges anyway, so you get a hospitialist no matter what.
 
I guess I am unfamiliar with the term 'balance bill'
"Balance billing" is when a provider bills the patient for anything not covered by the insurance company. So if the bill is $500 and the insurance company only pays $300, then the provider can bill the patient for the remaining $200. This is different than deductibles and copays.
 
And it's not going to be their oncologist when they were involved in an MVC.
 
Who's going to take care of the patient once the patient is admitted to the hospital? It surely isn't going to be the emergency physician.

All of that system's facilities have at least one staff internest.
 
Ah. From aideys post i understand and that is my understanding as well, but I also know we cannot do it unless we explain it to the patient and they sign the form. I do not know if that part is our company policy or statewide however.
 
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And we cannot balance bill for everything, just the amount of milage past the original facility
 
We are also very specifically not allowed to bypass an appropriate hospital with an open ER just because other parts of that hospital are closed (unless it is an L&D case that is going to bypass the ER and go straight to the floor). We have been expressly forbidden from doing that by both our MD and our management.

This isn't about the hospital past the ED being full or not. This is about ED congestion. If the patient is going to be transferred out due to insurance or home hospital, the patient is going to be waiting in the ED until the transfer can be arraigned and the IFT ambulance accepts the patient. That's one less available bed in the ED for your future patients.
 
I guess this is where differences between specific areas comes into play. Due to the locations of our hospitals and ownership and capability levels we rarely ever do insurance based transfers. In fact I can not remember ever doing a single one, and I'm a hawk when it comes to PCS forms being filled out properly. Rarely we transfer patients due to MD request, which always seem to be surgery patients or our non open-heart surgery center sending out high risk MI patients. The vast majority of our transfers are because of lack of beds at the hospital the patient is already at.
 
Insurance Companies will think of anyway they can not to pay ambulance costs.

Here it's 10 bucks a mile. SOO 5 miles and 50 bucks. or 50 miles and 500 bucks. Which do you think they will have a problem with.

True, but I was really wondering if it was true so that I can inform a pt that they're on the hook for travelling farther, to use as a deterrent to being used as a taxi. It would be a tool to discourage lengthy transports.
 
Outside Metropolitan Auckland there is often not a choice of transport destination as there is only one hospital.

Here in Metro we have a choice of five - ACH (Auckland City), North Shore, Starship (Paediatric), Middlemore (south) and West/Waitakere depending upon where you are.

Major trauma goes to Auckland or Middlemore if Middlemore is 10 minutes or more closer than Auckland (except paeds who go to Starship) and sometimes North Shore is bypassed for Auckland direct.

Patients do not have a choice of hospital i.e. they cannot say "I want to go here" because realistically there is generally only one facility and there would have to be extenuating circumstance to go somewhere specific if there was more than one choice of destination.

Billing here is through patient part charges, which is a flat rate for callout, with the remainder covered by bulk funding from the Ministry of Health and ACC.
 
Our rural system has a couple of hospitals that are about 45 minutes away, and a few more hospitals that are in the other direction, and about an hour away. We have a closest appropriate policy and medics are forever refusing to transport to the farther away hospitals because of that.

I believe this is exceptionally poor customer service, because chosing for the patient which city they will be hospitalized in can be an expensive, devastating choice for them. If they are in the hospital for an extended period, they will have to take on the risk and expense of an IFT to the "right" hospital, or their families will have to drive forever to see them, or not.

People who do not have support of their families in the hospital do not have as positive of outcomes as people whose families visit often.

All for 15 minutes? Half a unit hour? It's worth it to provide good service to the patient, as long as that 15 minutes isn't detrimental, which I have not seen in many years.

Either way we go, the trauma center is the furthest choice, and the further away trauma center is better, anyway, so I go with what the patient wants, or the closest facility. The patient's request has a big chunk of the "appropriate" decision-making for me.

I understand that bringing a pt to the hospital they want is good customer service. I'll generally take the pt where they want to go, as long as it is within reason. If their OB hospital is in DC or MD, I may take them there if I don't feel that delivery is imminent (I work in Northern VA for those that don't know). If their child is special needs, or had had a surgery further away, I'll always transport. We've transported to G'town from Annandale before during rush hour, because the pt was pleasant. Again, we have the twenty minute rule. From what you described, the next closest is only fifteen minutes. When they're asking to go an additional 30 minutes, an hour, or whatever, that's where I draw the line, unless they have a very good reason. I could care less about getting off on time. I do a lot of OT, so I'd welcome the extra time. It pays for a few days gas and dinner at the station.

I feel that if 911 is called, the situation is somewhat emergent, at least from the patient's point of view. If they want to go many miles past the closest appropriate, they must know at least subconsciously that their condition isn't that time sensitive, and that it isn't an emergency. Granted, they may not know that IFT services exist, but 911 emergency services aren't intended to taxi everyone wherever they want to go, which is oftentimes uncompensated or undercompensated. It's for emergent situations.

For example, I used to routinely transport a pt that would call for an asthma attack. He would c/o dyspnea, get a free albuterol tx, txp past several hospitals to the one (literally) across the street from his job as a security guard, give a false name and demographics, and walk out of the ED as as soon as we transferred him to the hospital bed. Every day. Drove me nuts, but there was nothing we could do about it. There are the patients that make the rounds between all the hospitals after each gets tired of them. There were more than several occasions where the pt signs out AMA, calls 911 from outside the ED, and wants us to take them to another one.

Where do we draw the line on how far we transport? If I was driving near Philly, and got into an accident and broke my leg or something, I wouldn't expect the crew to take me to Virginia, even though they could make it in under three hours. What if it was my father-in-law? He's in his 80's. A broken hip or femur would have him laid up. He'd need rehab there, or an expensive IFT to get him near family. It would still be unreasonable to have 911 transport him close to family, either in Brooklyn, or VA, both several miles away. What's the cutoff, in your opinion (and others)?
 
Where do we draw the line on how far we transport? If I was driving near Philly, and got into an accident and broke my leg or something, I wouldn't expect the crew to take me to Virginia, even though they could make it in under three hours. What if it was my father-in-law? He's in his 80's. A broken hip or femur would have him laid up. He'd need rehab there, or an expensive IFT to get him near family. It would still be unreasonable to have 911 transport him close to family, either in Brooklyn, or VA, both several miles away. What's the cutoff, in your opinion (and others)?

Patients should go to the facility for the catchment area they are picked up in.

If you have a choice of destination, patients should go to the facility appropriate for the problem they present with. For example paediatric, cardiac or major trauma should go the facility best designated to treat that problem.

If somebody says "I want to go here" Brown would reply "OK, call this number for Ambulance Communications and arrange a private hire, you pay for it, bye!".

Should there be some extenuating circumstance then perhaps destination might be changed; for example patients with a long history at a particular facility should go there. The only time Brown can think of destination was changed was an elderly man who did not like one particular hospital for cultural reasons so was probably just going to discharge himself if he was taken there.
 
What's the cutoff, in your opinion (and others)?

15 to 20 minutes outside your immediate service area. For example, the county I live in is basically divided between one service providing 911 transport service for the top half of the county and a separate service for the bottom half (paramedics are provided by the fire department and a handful of fire departments do their own transport). As such, any hospital inside that service area should be appropriate with an additional buffer zone around it. If you work in a very large regional system, then I can see limiting service area hospitals to, say, 30-40 minutes. However if you aren't being pulled out of the service area the limit should definitely be expanded.

Any request outside of that is a "it depends." For example, LVAD patients go to their home hospital. Other exceptions along that line apply. System abusers should have their chart tagged and advised that they will go to the closest hospital 100% of the time unless a specialty hospital is needed. To me, this is no different than the emergency departments giving suspected seekers 1 dose of pain medication, advising them to seek care from a primary care physician, and then tagging the chart so that they can refuse future prescription.
 
15 to 20 minutes outside your immediate service area. For example, the county I live in is basically divided between one service providing 911 transport service for the top half of the county and a separate service for the bottom half (paramedics are provided by the fire department and a handful of fire departments do their own transport). As such, any hospital inside that service area should be appropriate with an additional buffer zone around it. If you work in a very large regional system, then I can see limiting service area hospitals to, say, 30-40 minutes. However if you aren't being pulled out of the service area the limit should definitely be expanded.

Any request outside of that is a "it depends." For example, LVAD patients go to their home hospital. Other exceptions along that line apply. System abusers should have their chart tagged and advised that they will go to the closest hospital 100% of the time unless a specialty hospital is needed. To me, this is no different than the emergency departments giving suspected seekers 1 dose of pain medication, advising them to seek care from a primary care physician, and then tagging the chart so that they can refuse future prescription.

I feel the same. Our LVAD's are placed at a hospital that's central to the county.

Back in the day, in NYC, I had a different outlook. We were only allowed to txp ten minutes past the closest appropriate. If it was longer, we needed OLMC permission. They would go through their thing with the pt, but the bottom line was, if the pt adamantly refused to go anywhere other than their destination choice, the OLMC would grant their request, since the pt would threaten to refuse tx/txp otherwise. We were instructed to have the pt sign the PCR saying that if their condition changed, that we were required to divert to the closest facility. We would let the pt know how to play OLMC by threatening a refusal if we liked them, or if we wanted to go where they wanted. We liked going to other areas. Interestingly, the only pts who wanted to go clear across the city were pts who requested a hospital in the ghetto, such as Brookdale or Woodhull, for example. We had AVL, so we would drop them off, then have a blast running in the ghetto, and we wouldn't be able to make it out of there, unless we ran out of O2 or faked a mechanical issue or something. We liked seeing different neighborhoods from time to time.
 
Patients should go to the facility for the catchment area they are picked up in.

If you have a choice of destination, patients should go to the facility appropriate for the problem they present with. For example paediatric, cardiac or major trauma should go the facility best designated to treat that problem.

If somebody says "I want to go here" Brown would reply "OK, call this number for Ambulance Communications and arrange a private hire, you pay for it, bye!".

Should there be some extenuating circumstance then perhaps destination might be changed; for example patients with a long history at a particular facility should go there. The only time Brown can think of destination was changed was an elderly man who did not like one particular hospital for cultural reasons so was probably just going to discharge himself if he was taken there.

Every place I've worked for has had the "transport everyone possible for billing purposes" policy, so turfing the pt to the privates, or suggesting alternatives to the ED via an ambulance was never an option. Never mind that many of these cases were uncompensated or undercompensated. There's also the threat of a lawsuit if we take them somewhere other than what they agree to. There's some protection if their condition is serious, and we txp to the closest appropriate, but still.....
 
Ah America, the home of frivolous lawsuits! :D

Lawyer: You did not take my client to the hospital he asked to go to!
Brown: In my professional clinical opinion as an Ambulance Officer it would be inappropriate to bypass the closest medical facility
Lawyer: (to client) Why didn't you tell me he told you that? :D

Is it common for the Ambulance Service over your way to be bulk funded for core capability or revenue dependant upon billing only?
 
Ah America, the home of frivolous lawsuits! :D

Lawyer: You did not take my client to the hospital he asked to go to!
Brown: In my professional clinical opinion as an Ambulance Officer it would be inappropriate to bypass the closest medical facility
Lawyer: (to client) Why didn't you tell me he told you that? :D

Is it common for the Ambulance Service over your way to be bulk funded for core capability or revenue dependant upon billing only?

There's too much money in TORT law. To expect any meaningful reform to take place is unrealistic.

Municipal systems are typically funded for core capability. To not bill at least the pt's insurance would be leaving money on the table so to speak. Hospitals and privates may have contracts with the local municipality, which covers their overhead. Some jurisdictions may keep any surplus, and others may let the EMS agency have it.

In NYC, the hospitals are on their own financially, as far as I know. They use 911, which more often than not runs in the red, as advertisement for their hospital, for pt steering (a no-no, but it does happen), as training for the ones that also have an IFT division, and also as a means to attract employees. Pt steering, being a rolling billboard, and being in an affluent area or at least one where enough pts have commercial insurance, so that they realize that revenue instead of the city, is how they make out.
 
Ah America, the home of frivolous lawsuits! :D

Lawyer: You did not take my client to the hospital he asked to go to!
Brown: In my professional clinical opinion as an Ambulance Officer it would be inappropriate to bypass the closest medical facility
Lawyer: (to client) Why didn't you tell me he told you that? :D

Is it common for the Ambulance Service over your way to be bulk funded for core capability or revenue dependant upon billing only?

Who's making arguments about lawsuits? In fact all I've been arguing is that the home hospital is best for the patient and best for the system as a whole in patients who actually have a home hospital.
 
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