Design a new Paramedic Baccalaureate-Level Curriculum

[thegreypilgrim]

OK guys, I'm sure this has been done before (in fact I remember doing something similar a while ago) but put those concerns aside and indulge me.

Say you've been charged with developing a curriculum for a Bachelor of Science degree in Paramedicine in a university context. What should the prerequisites be? What are the core upper division courses? Have at thee!

 

[gicts]

Nothing personal, but I have to question why. Not why you are posting this (too lazy to do a little creative HW?), but why would one enter a Bachelor's program in Para-medicine? There would be no pay benefit from those without even an Associates degree, and no guarantee of quicker promotions. Heck, even if a promotion was guaranteed, wouldn't another, more broad and diverse degree be more optimal for their future seeing as the average EMS career is 7 years?

I can't imagine 2 more years over the Associates degree being necessary or beneficial to the average paramedic. I'll cheat and say look at Canada's 4 year programs for my input in prerequisite's and curriculum. I truly couldn't imagine any sane person entering into such a program. h34r:

 

[thegreypilgrim]

Wow, ok let's recap what we've got here:

(1) Irrelevant comments that miss the point.

(2) Avoiding the idea of a higher education standard.

(3) An assumption about motives.


Definitely an EMS forum.

 

[gicts]

Wow, ok let's recap what we've got here:

(1) Irrelevant comments that miss the point.

(2) Avoiding the idea of a higher education standard.

(3) An assumption about motives.


Definitely an EMS forum.

Wow, ok let's recap what we've got here:

(1) Not answering my question as to why.

How would these students benefit from a higher education degree?

 

[thegreypilgrim]

Not the purpose of the thread man...the idea is to engage in hypothetical reasoning because sometimes (astonishingly) such an endeavor might be fun/beneficial/interesting. Sometimes. Like this time.

 

[Veneficus]

I think before you can define a curriculum, you must first define the role.

If you are talking about a "community health paramedic" role your curriculum is going to be different than a strictly emergency role.

Some universal provider who would be able to handle everything from routine IFT to emergency, to critical care, disaster response or anything else you want to toss in would be different still.

It might even call for a basic level of education with later subspecialty.

It is not that I don't want to answer, but all education has to be tailored to the position. Otherwise you spend a lot of time, money, and effort and wind up with a lot of nothing.

 

[thegreypilgrim]

Good point. For the purposes of this thread then, presume a "Community/Public Health Paramedic" who's supposed to function in a comprehensive out-of-hospital medical care capacity.

 

[gicts]

Not the purpose of the thread man...the idea is to engage in hypothetical reasoning because sometimes (astonishingly) such an endeavor might be fun/beneficial/interesting. Sometimes. Like this time.

Ahh. I gotcha. I'll play.

Freshman and Sophomore year I would keep as-is for Associate's degree programs. Basic English, math, anatomy, and EMT/Paramedic programs. If Biology and Chem aren't included, I would add those if possible.

First semester of Junior year, students would be recommended to take:
Personal Health 101
Basic Finance 101
Physical Education 101
The Law And You! 101

That would probably end up being 12 hours and the minimum for full time- there for the maximum as well.

Second Semester of Junior year would include
Common Sense 101
How to play nice with others-and nurses too! 101
How not to cheat on your spouse 201
Anatomy 102

Again-12 hours and obviously plenty of work for the students


Summer internship includes extensive time spent at the career center.

If any students enlist for the senior semester they are recommended to the local mental health center.

h34r:

Good point. For the purposes of this thread then, presume a "Community/Public Health Paramedic" who's supposed to function in a comprehensive out-of-hospital medical care capacity.

Awwww take the fun and feisty sarcasm out of things.
I would highly recommend having an internship at a progressive EMS service (like Wake County EMS) be a full semester. That would be beneficial for not only the student's practical skills, but for preparing the student to teach and expand tomorrow's EMS vision (God willing). A condensed version of a Physician's Assistant's program may not be a bad decision for one or two semesters and perhaps segue into an option to continue their education into a Physician's Assistant Graduate Program. That would give the graduate a foundation for continuing their education as well as beneficial (including hands-on and practical) education in EMS.

 

[usafmedic45]

How would these students benefit from a higher education degree?

Ever heard of a self-induced false shortage? Ever wonder why physical therapists went to requiring a doctorate and why they are paid so dang much?

 

[gicts]

Ever heard of a self-induced false shortage? Ever wonder why physical therapists went to requiring a doctorate and why they are paid so dang much?

We are having difficulties getting patients to pay our $1000 transport bills and therefore slashing expenses left and right. The only way I see raising salaries is by raising transport costs- which I can't fathom. :glare:

Ideally, yes. Previously, more education would equate to higher paying salaries. However, IMO, budgets and revenue in the EMS systems are attacked by many different angles, and the bottom of which are the salaries for employees. It doesn't matter if you slap doctors and nurses on ambulances, the pay of those who drive ambulances aren't going to go up. YMMV depending on if you are private, volunteer, or a city service, but the same principle remains.

It would be nice if the education standards were raised, but in my region we are having difficulties filling the seats of ambulances as it is. Until the pay becomes desirable, which I can't see happening anytime soon (don't get me started on the new health care 'reform'), don't expect an interest in increasing the educational standards.

If for some reason there was a new standard requiring a masters degree to be a paramedic or whatchamacall'um, what would happen? Instead of 2 years of schooling, students are forced through 6. The chain of events would play out so there would be less people who could make it through the programs, and they would be expected to be compensated financially for it. Cool. Let's look at the average pay of a master's degree
(quick google search) http://www.happyschoolsblog.com/average-masters-degree-salary/

Let's say conservatively a Master's degree is worth $65,000. I make $36,000. Could your service employee twice as many Paramedics who sit on their a** and don't even check out a truck?

Hang tight, I can read your mind. These new magic medics would be Community Paramedics and be able to choose where to send people and cure stuff magically. You still receive the same amount of calls, forcing your transport fees to literally double. Who pays $2000 for glorified taxi drive? Let's not kid ourselves, more often than not that is what were are called for. How many people would pay?

Sure, there are many variables in the United States. Urban and Rural cities. Private and Public services. Three tier and Fire based. LMAO at the thought of some firefighter medics sticking around for a Master's degree.



Maybe I am too burned out already, or just a realist. Without an increase in pay, our educational standards are going nowhere- and I don't see our pay going up anytime soon. I am just happy to have a somewhat secure job where I don't hide behind a corner every day trying to avoid a pink slip from my manager.

 

[usafmedic45]

It doesn't matter if you slap doctors and nurses on ambulances, the pay of those who drive ambulances aren't going to go up. YMMV depending on if you are private, volunteer, or a city service, but the same principle remains.

But if the only option was to pay a wage deemed acceptable by the majority of us or not have ambulances at all, then you have a whole other ballgame. The problem is that enough of our ranks are made up of people who are young, immature, stupid, adrenaline-seeking, or socially inept (or a combination of some or all of the above) that they will work for anything and they are the reason our salaries are so low. If you cut the supply of them off (get rid of the diploma mills, shutter the "online programs" and establish a higher standard for entry to practice), then the same thing that happened with nursing, RT, etc will happen with EMS.

don't expect an interest in increasing the educational standards.

You think the rank and file nurses are thrilled every time the standards are jacked up a little more? I know a lot of us in the RT field are annoyed by the political grandstanding because we're at a point where increasing the educational standards is not going to garner us any more pay increases. It's just a way of maintaining an artificial scarcity to keep the pay scale at a decent level.

My advice: Ignore the "interest" of the rank and file EMS providers and make a unilateral move to either play ball or get out. Those with the determination to better themselves will be thankful in the end. An added benefit for forum members like us will be a decrease in the number of threads about which holsters is better for your trauma shears, which lights to put on your car and whether you're allowed to carry a gun at work as we push the Ricky Rescues out of our midst.

 

[gicts]

But if the only option was to pay a wage deemed acceptable by the majority of us or not have ambulances at all, then you have a whole other ballgame. The problem is that enough of our ranks are made up of people who are young, immature, stupid, adrenaline-seeking, or socially inept (or a combination of some or all of the above) that they will work for anything and they are the reason our salaries are so low. If you cut the supply of them off (get rid of the diploma mills, shutter the "online programs" and establish a higher standard for entry to practice), then the same thing that happened with nursing, RT, etc will happen with EMS.

I am in a urban setting in Kentucky, not far from you. Many of our transports are under 5 miles. Right now I feel guilty sticking patients with the bills that they receive.

I understand what you are saying, however I can't imagine being able to come up with any more revenue to support EMS (likely double what we spend now) if we demand higher education.

In some situations a community paramedic would be nice- but that niche has been filled already in some places with at home nursing care. h34r:

The more I am in the field the more I wish we were better than what we are, but the more I doubt that day will ever come. :shrug:

 

[usafmedic45]

I am in a urban setting in Kentucky, not far from you. Many of our transports are under 5 miles. Right now I feel guilty sticking patients with the bills that they receive.

I understand what you are saying, however I can't imagine being able to come up with any more revenue to support EMS (likely double what we spend now) if we demand higher education.

In some situations a community paramedic would be nice- but that niche has been filled already in some places with at home nursing care. h34r:

The more I am in the field the more I wish we were better than what we are, but the more I doubt that day will ever come. :shrug:

I'm enough of a moral relativist that I don't have a problem justifying it. Of course, the crappy pay is one reason I got out of EMS. I make $23 an hour now sitting on my butt posting this. That's what I made as an EMS supervisor doing 10x as much work. I don't feel guilty at all...in fact, there's a strange sense of entitlement at play here in my case....

 

[gicts]

I'm enough of a moral relativist that I don't have a problem justifying it. Of course, the crappy pay is one reason I got out of EMS. I make $23 an hour now sitting on my butt posting this. That's what I made as an EMS supervisor doing 10x as much work. I don't feel guilty at all...in fact, there's a strange sense of entitlement at play here in my case....

That crappy pay is the reason I spend days looking for a career outside of EMS, not using it as a motivator to further my education in the system. The same principle is why I criticize the thought of additional education in EMS, especially when people speak of tacking 2+ years on to what we do.

I can hardly support myself right now with my college debt, even with the 10+ hours of OT I pick up a week. I couldn't imagine paying for more years of that quality learning.

 

[firecoins]

I read the first post only.

First Year
English I & II 6 credits
College Algebra 3 credits
Statisitics 4 credits
A&P I&II 8 credits
Psychology 3 credits
Abnormal Psych 3 credits
EMT class 6 credits

Second Year
human development 3 credits
Neuro science 4 credits
pharmacology 4 credits
pathology 4 credits
legal writing 3
Criminal Justice 3
Public Health 3
Plebotomy 3
EKG/Heart anatomy 3
Hospital volunteering 2

Third Year
Paramedic Program 32 credits

Forth Year
Accounting 4
Managment 4
Emergency Management 3
Terrorism 3
Crimonolgy 3
Sociology 3
World History 3
American History 3

 

[Melclin]

Year 1
BEH1021 Professional Communication in CBEH
BMA1901 Human Structure and Function 1
BEH1102 Clinical concepts of paramedic practice 1
IPE1011 Foundations of Health in Primary Clinical Care

BEH1022 Pharmacotherapy in CBEH (6)
BMA1902 Human Structure and Function 2 (6)
BEH1011 Clinical Concepts of Paramedic Practice 2
NUR1202 Legal Issues and Concepts

Year 2
BEH2011 Professionalism and Community Based Emergency Health Systems
BEH2041 Human Development and Health Across the Lifespan
BEH2021 Population Aspects of CBEH Services
BEH2501 Community Health, Culture and Society

BEH2012 Paramedic Management of Cardio-Respiratory Conditions
BEH2022 Paramedic Management of Trauma and Environmental Conditions
(BEH2032 Paramedic Clinical Practice 1)


Year 3
BEH3011 Paramedic Management of Medical Conditions
BEH3051 Paramedic Management of Mental Health
BEH3021 Paramedic Management of Health Conditions at Life Stages
(BEH3031 Paramedic Clinical Practice 2)

BEH3032 Paramedic Management of Critical Care Specialty Situations BEH3012 Clinical Leadership and Emergency Preparedness
BEH3022 Research and Contemporary Challenges in CBEH
(BEH3042 Advanced Paramedic Clinical Practice 3)

This is our degree as it stands for new students starting last year.

Thing is though, you can only get so much out of subject titles. They bear almost no actual similarities to their actual content most of the time. "Community, health, culture and society" for example was the most bull:censored::censored::censored::censored: subject I've ever had the misfortune of having to do. Professional communication on the other hand sound like that kind of subject but its actually pretty brilliant. Amongst other things, students are taped talking and negotiating with patients to improve their communication skills body language and work with standard pt actors to get feed back on the rapport the build with people.

The old Advanced Diploma (essentially what you would call an associates degree I suppose) that existed before the degree had an interesting system where students would alternate between periods on the road and periods at school after an initial period basic learning, which worked well and appear to be a similar structure to the medical curriculum around these parts. As it stands now, we have far too little time on road to consolidate the theoretical information we learn. That needs fixing, but in a few years I think the degree will be something pretty special.

EDIT: CBEH stands for Community Based Emergency Health. Its our official/academic version of EMS; a term that has never really been used in Australia.

 

[socalmedic]

http://www.llu.edu/allied-health/sahp/emc/programinfo.page?

how about this... the work is already done.


on a side note to reply to the earlier posts about why to raise education standards. I believe that an increase in education would decrease in the overall amount of paramedics resulting in higher pay, more motivated medics, and more respect from higher level providers. i know this would not be an overnight transformation however if it went up in steps (starting at the AAS level) and got progressively higher it would work out to our benefit. i know that here in CA we have no education requirements, I also know that other states do have requirements for degrees (not necessarily in EMS but in health related fields). God forbid that Los Angeles Fire Department runs out of paramedics what on earth would we do... maby Los Angeles DHS would actually provide the EMS to the county, since they already are a county EMS agency with ambulance already on the road. http://ems.dhs.lacounty.gov/AmbulanceServices/AmbServ.htm who might i add get paid very well for only being EMTs.

anyway i guess part of my rant was to say that as a new medic i am still looking for more education beyond paramedic school, and think that we should have at least a minimum AAS to start preferably a BS.

 

[MrBrown]

why not require a degree? most other nations eg Australia, New Zealand, the UK and Souh Africa require a Bachleors degree for Paramedics. In AU and NZ the ALS level Officer known as an Intensive Care Paramedic requires a Graduate degree

 

[jjesusfreak01]

why not require a degree?

Nobody would become paramedics if it required a bachelors degree because the pay is too low because we don't charge enough because the insurance won't pay more.

That said, the biggest problem lies with the government. Half of our patients have Medicare as their primary insurance, and the government keeps slashing reimbursement rates. We could justify charging more for patients who have actual emergencies, but it still holds that the insurance companies aren't going to want to pay more for a paramedic with a bachelors degree than a paramedic with a cert, because they aren't going to see the difference in 99% of cases.

I know the popular notion is that providers are going to have to take the initiative to change education standards, but I believe in the US the change is going to have to be initiated at the federal level. That doesn't mean we can't push for the change in federal guidelines, but it does limit our options.

/rant

 

[Veneficus]

That said, the biggest problem lies with the government. Half of our patients have Medicare as their primary insurance, and the government keeps slashing reimbursement rates. We could justify charging more for patients who have actual emergencies, but it still holds that the insurance companies aren't going to want to pay more for a paramedic with a bachelors degree than a paramedic with a cert, because they aren't going to see the difference in 99% of cases.

I think this is what makes the case for higher education actually.

EMS does not deserve what it gets now and more and more people are catching on to that. There will be a continuing trend of rates getting slashed. Especially since without unified professionals advocating on their own behalf.

Nothing changes the fact that society whether it admits it or not values education. No education, no seat at the table discussing who gets how much.

Since the only option to prove value is to actually diversify and demonstrate either savings or revenue it will require more education.

$1000 for an ALS taxi ride today is not worth it and nobody deserves it. The constant struggle to add more trips, more responses, more toys that help in so few situations instead of more education and value of the provider is causing EMS to literally price itself out of the market.

The only option is to evolve or become extinct.