The FAA requires larger commercial aircraft to carry ALS drugs like epi and lidocaine, but many of their AEDs don't display an ECG readout. Hypothetically, if you are on a plane with a drug bag and an AED, could you push ALS drugs based on the AED's decision to shock or not? If the AED says "shock advised", the patient must be in either v-fib or v-tach, so would it be alright to give epi after the first shock if AED recommends a second shock?
Can you push ALS drugs based off an AED's decision to shock?
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KEVD18
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anybody who would treat based on a guess should have their ticket pulled the mintue the plane lands.
FF894
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Wait, WHAT!? Which ALS provider is going to be administering these drugs. "Is there an ALCS certified person on the flight? Please come to the front cabin"
traumateam1
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Not that I disagree, because I don't.. but if this is the case, why does the FAA require ALS drugs to be on large commercial airplanes, if they only have AEDs w/o ECG screens?
FF894
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Okay, I breezed through that and still don't see anything about an appropriate ACLS provider (and even more so for some of that) being on board to administer? Did I miss it?
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Very interesting read...good find, Vent.
KEVD18
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it does say that this gear is only to be used by a "qualified" person and goes on to specifically reference doctors and nurses.
what cracks me up about that is not every nurse would have the foggiest clue what to do with half of it(the same could be said for some doctors, but i digress).
traumateam1
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Good article Vent, and thank you. But I still don't have an answer to my original question.
"Off duty" medics can now push ALS drugs when in the air based on an AED's interpretation of a heart arrhythmia?
"Off duty" medics can now push ALS drugs when in the air based on an AED's interpretation of a heart arrhythmia?
traumateam1
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Again, I don't disagree with you Kev.. but how do you know what rhythm if it's only an AED without an ECG screen?? Are they going off of the fact that a shock advised means is either two rhythms? v fib or v tach?
FF894
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Technically, you are out of the state so do your protocols apply? Even if you are NR, not all states fall under NR. Anything beyond CPR and AED would open up some liability, no?
Most domestic airlines carry Medaire EMK kits: http://www.medaire.com/comm_kits.html
International carriers often have either Medaire enhanced-EMKs or Banyan Stat-kit 700 or 900s. All of these kits are full of ACLS drugs, but the planes are only equiped with an AED. The flight crew is not authorized to use drugs, they are supposed to ask if there is a medical professional on board who can assist.
International carriers often have either Medaire enhanced-EMKs or Banyan Stat-kit 700 or 900s. All of these kits are full of ACLS drugs, but the planes are only equiped with an AED. The flight crew is not authorized to use drugs, they are supposed to ask if there is a medical professional on board who can assist.
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I believe the first article also mentioned something about contacting a ground based medical control. Combine that with the FAA statement that the patient remains the responsibility of the crew, I would guess that you would follow their protocols as long as they were in your scope of practice.
KEVD18
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with out at least an aed that is capable of being unlocked/overridded to als mode, you would be pushing drugs blind.
as far as the liability, ask whoever it was that tried to tell me what my liability for practicing off duty in my own home state was.
as far as the liability, ask whoever it was that tried to tell me what my liability for practicing off duty in my own home state was.
traumateam1
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Seems flawed to me lol. But I think I am missing something obvious here.. it just doesn't add up.
Here you go, have some ACLS drugs, that you aren't qualified to use. If there is someone qualified to use them, and willing to risk their ticket/license to use them, than it's a good thing you have them. And here is your AED.. just follow the voice prompts. You don't need a screen, just push the button when it tells you too, and if it doesn't.. just do CPR and use these here drugs.
I dunno, I don't really get this. Sorry.
Here you go, have some ACLS drugs, that you aren't qualified to use. If there is someone qualified to use them, and willing to risk their ticket/license to use them, than it's a good thing you have them. And here is your AED.. just follow the voice prompts. You don't need a screen, just push the button when it tells you too, and if it doesn't.. just do CPR and use these here drugs.
I dunno, I don't really get this. Sorry.
If you make contact with the emergency phone number listed on the Medaire kits, you are released from all liability and it transfers to their physicians.
This explains it better: http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1119072
Neither do I, that's why I'm asking
I just can't figure out what you're supposed to do with all the drugs when all you have is an AED. Some airlines are starting to put Philips FR2+ ECG equipped AEDs on their aircraft, but they are still a very small minority. FAA requires an AED so they buy the cheap ones W/O ECG.
FF894
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I agree with traumateam - doesnt make me feel real warm and fuzzy about it, even if I did call some number on the box and talk to some random doctor. I would be reluctant to use the drugs, especially if i dont know what the heck I'm dealing with. CPR is the only 100% proven to work therapy. I'll do that and train people to do that while the pilot lands post-haste.
KEVD18
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heres the part your missing(altough you're not really missing it, since you said it yourself):
if theres a qualified person there who is willing to do it, then they are equipped. if not, then its just another item that the faa requires to be on board and the only interaction the crew has with it is seeing that its there and checking it off on the pre flight checklist.
further, its the faa. it doesnt matter if it makes sense. they put a committe together and came up with this and now its law.