C-spine... a joke?

"Lowest common denominator of protocols" and "treat each case individually".

Look back through similar threads.
EMT's were largely invented because of mishandled C-Spine and other MVA injuries of the Sixties, and the rest of my Fred Flintstone spiel. The concept of universal C Spine came from that, and a fear of being sued for improperly directing and instructing EMT's.
C spine isn't a joke, but I've seen two pt's die in the field similarly to the combat example above (they would have died in holspital anyway, but not from positional airway embarassment; both were cranial injuries, one GSW, one mocycle versus guywire).
ANd combat medicine is sometimes tomorrow's civilian standard....but not yet.
 
We do not use (or even carry) longboards; we threw them out years ago but rather use collars and the Ferno scoop stretcher.

here, we will get in major trouble and more than likely sued (causing us thousands of dollars and our certification) if we dont use a backboard with a neck collar.
 
Except your doctor friend has the same wrong thought process when it comes to Cspine tgat many in EMS do. Cspine isn't just "neutral in line". It veryuch is mainraing them in the position that does the most good.

In EMT I was taught cspine should be thought of as any other fx... You get one chance at most at setting it. If there is any amount of pain or discomfort when turning the head AT ALL, you stop and maintain the position of comfort.

Except my doctor friend is medical director for over 550 paramedics and very proactive and progressive in EMS...he likes to make people think.

The example I gave was more of posing a question for you to digest which you failed to do. We know very well it is not maintaining neutral in line position, did you not read what I wrote?

How do you know that a flat in line position is the one that needs to be maintained and does the most good? Answer is...you don't.

The body takes care of itself, when it is insulted it has processes to minimize and fix damage. Someone sustaining an injury prior to your arrival and already finding a position of comfort may already be in the best position. Why do you think removing them from the position and manipulating them is better? What studies do you have?

This is exactly what he is asking and contemplating...

So based on what you wrote, it is perfectly acceptable for you to bring a patient in on a backboard and no collar or vice versa? I mean if they felt pain in the neck and you couldn't apply it, does your system allow for that?
 
here, we will get in major trouble and more than likely sued (causing us thousands of dollars and our certification) if we dont use a backboard with a neck collar.
A basic anatomy book illustrates the spine is curved...therefore a neutral position is one that allows the natural curvature. Placing people on a flat board does not allow for that and may possibly create more pressure in the wrong place and further aggravate the injury.

A scoop stretcher allows you to keep the patient in a straight position, move them around, and prevents pressure from being placed on the spine by a board.

Which does more harm?
 
You and I are basically arguing the same point... which is why I don't get the hostility in your reply.
 
Context man...context...all about your wording and it didn't come across the way you probably intended.
 
A basic anatomy book illustrates the spine is curved...therefore a neutral position is one that allows the natural curvature. Placing people on a flat board does not allow for that and may possibly create more pressure in the wrong place and further aggravate the injury.

A scoop stretcher allows you to keep the patient in a straight position, move them around, and prevents pressure from being placed on the spine by a board.

Which does more harm?

oh i entirely understand and i know that a board can aggravate the injury, but its just our protocol and if not followed we can have serious legal issues especially from jerks who just want money.
 
There must be a reason that LSB are the current standard. Is it just that they provide greater stability?
 
Out of all the c-spine threads, I like this one the best. Sasha, MSDelta, and Lucid bring out some good points and articles:

http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=12256&highlight=c-spine

and, AK, I agree 110% with you! We can never really clear the spine in a prehopistal setting, but we need to use an educated judgement when it comes to it all and do what is best for the pt.; they didn't call 911 so that they could get some monkey who pulled out his textbook for treatment... "If they have symptom A, ALWAYS do this"?. There is a reason why most EMTs are taught, BOARD THEM ALL! Because they aren't expected to have any good medical judgement... sad but true. This doesn't mean that this philosophy is smart or right.
 
There must be a reason that LSB are the current standard. Is it just that they provide greater stability?

Or is it simply something we have always done and not given it much thought??

Examine your question and think about anatomy of the spine. Does it give more stability? If so, how?
 
LSB can be made by anyone with basic tools and brains.

If I recall my Sr Livesaving handbook had diagrams to make the long and the short boards. Back then, short then long board were the standard for extrication.
Yes, we shook rattles and ate mastadont jerky too.
 
Some of what we do in EMS I can only figure we do because "we thought it was good in the seventies or eighties so we continue to do it". Examples:

- Spine imobilization/long spine boards
- 50% dextrose
- MAST pants
- Atropine in cardiac arrest
- Drugs down ET tubes
- Basic life support
- High concenration oxygen
- Trendelenburg position for hypovolemia or shock
- Endotracheal intubation (in trauma and traumatic brain inury)
- ... did I cover every procedure yet?

I'm not sure what you mean by BLS.

Of the others, generally I agree, with the exception of intubation in traumatic brain injury. Whilst there are a number of studies around, they are not of particularly good quality, and nor do many of them even ask the right questions. However, all things being equal it is my understanding that this should be rectified with the publication of a paper from our Australian colleagues maybe this year. Maybe one of them could shed some more light as I only have second hand information, but I believe that a study done there has shown clear benefit in long and short term outcomes in patients with TBI who recieve RSI for TBI in the field.
 
If anyone has links to good studies about the list Mr. Brown posted, I would appreciate it. I've been looking and found some interesting overviews but not a lot of full texts, I don't live anywhere near a medical library or even decent library.

In any event,

I have heard many times that Trendelenburg may in fact be useless or near useless, and that MAST trousers are probably more trouble than they are worth. My still very green opinion is that they seem like a potentially useful device as long as their is care in the ER, and the reason for their use is carefully considered by providers.

We've been discussing some of the issues with LSB, and I have found a few studies that support the switch to scoop stretchers, vaccum devices. But I have not found anything (yet) that discusses abandonment of spinal precautions in general.

BLS I view as essential, I don't understand why it makes this list. O2 I would think would be similar, is the issue COPD patients?

Is the thinking that atropine and dextrose do not improve patient care? Or is it that their side effects outweigh their benefits?

Please do post that info when it is ready Smash.
 
If anyone has links to good studies about the list Mr. Brown posted, I would appreciate it. I've been looking and found some interesting overviews but not a lot of full texts, I don't live anywhere near a medical library or even decent library.

In any event,

I have heard many times that Trendelenburg may in fact be useless or near useless, and that MAST trousers are probably more trouble than they are worth. My still very green opinion is that they seem like a potentially useful device as long as their is care in the ER, and the reason for their use is carefully considered by providers.

We've been discussing some of the issues with LSB, and I have found a few studies that support the switch to scoop stretchers, vaccum devices. But I have not found anything (yet) that discusses abandonment of spinal precautions in general.

BLS I view as essential, I don't understand why it makes this list. O2 I would think would be similar, is the issue COPD patients?

Is the thinking that atropine and dextrose do not improve patient care? Or is it that their side effects outweigh their benefits?

Please do post that info when it is ready Smash.

Do a Google Scholar search and you will find tons of lit and research on each of those items posted. Tredelenburg research has been discussed by Dr. Bledsoe in numerous articles alike the "Golden Hour" myth.

R/r 911
 
I'll have a look around the net on Science Direct, PubMed etc and see what I can find; but from what I've heard

- Scoop stretcher provides less movement than LSB (study posted previously)
- 50% dextrose can cause cereberal necrosis due to a large increase of sugar in hypoglycemic patients (Bledsore article here)
- Atropine, procainamide and the precordial thump have all been proven ineffective or have no supporting evidence (AHA ECC 2005 guidelines here)
- Drugs down ET tubes have resulted in lower end plasma quantities of the drug vs. IV route (AHA ECC 2005 guidelines here)
- Trendelenburg position .... not sure
- Intubation/RSI see the presentation here
 
Just as an aside, I realized while reading all this that I was feeling dissapointed about the idea of intubation, atropine, dextrose, c spine precautions being taken away from Paramedic practice. Solely out of a personal desire to get to use advanced exciting skills. That's a pretty terrible reason to want to do something, and I should be motivated by a desire for the best outcome for the patient.

Thanks to all that contributed to this thread, keeps me on my toes ethically as well as medically.
 
Dr Smith raises some interesting points, however I have to take issue with some of this presentation. It seems to me that the good doctors bias is showing. Whilst he happily includes the methodological flaws in the studies that are supportive of prehospital RSI, he does not consider the same troubles with the ones that are supportive.

For example, in one study that is reasonably widely quoted by opponents of RSI is: Wang et al, Out-of-hospital endotracheal intubation and outcome after traumatic brain injury, Ann Emerg Med 2004.

In this study Wang compares patient's who recieved prehospital intubation for head injury versus ER intubation. What is not mentioned anywhere in the study is how the airway management is carried out.

According to the Pennsylvania protocols that I have been able to access (at http://www.dsf.health.state.pa.us/health/lib/health/ems/als_protocols-effective_07-01-07.pdf), Penn EMS does not have the option of RSI to achieve airway control. Therefore it would be reasonable to asusme that any patient intubated in Penn when this study was carried out either had it done cold, or with sedation alone. Now, how many people would assume the same of the tubes performed in the ER?

I would make a huge leap here and suggest that those who were intubated in the ER were tubed using RSI, which is clearly a very different matter than dropping a cold tube in someone who is so obtunded that they are all but dead anyway, or those that are intubated using sedation alone. I could be wrong, as Wang doesn't actually bother to let us know, however I am sure we would all be very surprised if the TBI patient in the ED just had a tube forced down or tons of sedation thrown onboard.

Wang also considers in his study that any airway management in the field is the same as intubation, including cric, combi-tube, OPA, whatever. He even considers laryngoscopy as an intubation attempt! Wang also does some very interesting things with statistics (essentially he seems to think that paramedics lie about their attempts at tubing, so he just goes ahead and ups the numbers to what he reckons might be good!)

With such vague, poorly defined and patently ridiculous parameters along with bizarre fiddling with the stats, Wangs study is hardly worth the paper it is written on.

The San Diego study is also worth mentioning as it is also one of the cornerstones of the AntiRSI league's arguements. In this study the one thing that really comes across is, as Tony states, RSI done badly is bad. Desaturation, hyperventilation, failed intubations, low exposure all contribute to a poor outcome. Does this mean that the procedure done correctly is bad? No, just that the procedure (like all procedures) done badly is bad.


I probably come across as a fervent supporter of RSI. I guess I am, as I am a medic that is authorised fairly liberally to RSI all manner of patients, and I have found that when done correctly by skilled and experienced operators, it is a godsend. Bear in mind that our medics are getting 3 or 4 tubes a week of various sorts, and average 1 RSI per week which is a far cry from Dr Smith's medics getting 3 a year.

However it is clear that there needs to be a lot more work done on the research front to confirm or deny the benefit. If it turns out from the studies that my service and others are doing that RSI is bad, so be it. However I think it is premature to be doing away with a procedure that is safe when done correctly and may still carry benefit (aside from making my life easier! ^_^ )

We need to compare apples with apples, as Wang (and others) clearly fail to do and not let those with agendas push our practice in a direction they want it to go.
 
I'm really glad I read all this before paying my 600 dollar deposit for the med program I am looking at ! I am going to need to give some serious thought to my career plans based on these damning articles.

Im willing to work hard, get educated etc, but not if I am going to end up in a position that does not increase patient outcome, or perhaps worsens it!

Maybe Ill go to Nursing school instead.
 
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