BLS doing ALS skills illegal? Immoral? Unethical?

[MMiz]

As many know, I'm trying to start an EMS club. Part of this would be demonstrating lots of "cool" stuff for the students.

Because I'm at the BLS level, I can only stick a combitube down Rescue Randy's throat so many times before it gets old.

Would it be wrong for me to demonstrate ALS skills? Is there a legal or ethical issue?

Could I hook someone up to an EKG on the LifePak 12?
How about tube 'ole Randy?

Just something I was thinking about that I thought others may have some feelings about.

 

[TTLWHKR]

Train em so they know how to assist the medic. Other wise he's basically alone with an observer.

 

[MMiz]

Train em so they know how to assist the medic. Other wise he's basically alone with an observer.

This is more for me than for them. I'm thinking is it unethical for me to be showing these skills.

 

[squid]

Are you saying you can only provide BLS, but you know ALS stuff? And are you actually teaching these kids, or just hanging out and talking about EMS? I'm assuming you're teaching the kids at least first aid or something.

Here's what I'm thinking as a teacher. There are some pretty fussy rules about what you're allowed to teach and even say to student in an EMT class or such, but I think an exciting scenario might be fun. Perhaps you could do an occaional demo day where you announce very clearly that you are not instructing, but that people with much more training than they have can do all kinds of nifty things, and then get a couple of friends to run a megacode simulation or something so the kids can see what it's like when everyone works together at a fast pace. Because they will think it's *cool.*

In other words, I think if you draw extremely clear boundaries about what you're actually teaching them and what you're just showing them, you could do a few more advanced techniques in your class.

 

[emtbuff]

I agree with Squid as long as you make it well known that this is for demonstration only and that they should in no way attempt to do what you are about to do you should be fine. I also like the megacode demo as that will show how team work is part of our everyday life and the importance of it.

Actually I was thinking of comeing up with something small for when we have to do our kindergarten tours as to just stand there and talk. As I think they would like a demonstration more.

 

[Wingnut]

I agree. I forsee no problem in showing them ALS as long as you tell them that it's not something you or them can actually do in the field. In fact I think it's wise of you to show them, if they ever did get in a situation where they'd use thier skills, it would help them to know what to expect from the medic and the basic procedures. It may even make it a little less intimidating. You could have it be "Be a medic day". Have a little lecture about the rules etc., then have some fun with it.

 

[Jon]

I agree, and really like the "have a medic come in and run a megacode" idea.

But if you hooked yourself up to a LP12 to show what a heartbeat REALLY looks like... that might be cool. Of couse, if you looked at each kid, what if you found something abnormal??? how would you handle that???

 

[AnthonyM83]

Is there anything wrong with it?
If you're teaching a skill, then yes.
If you're a giving a demonstration, then no.

 

[CaptainPanic]

I have an idea - train them in CPR, BVM, NPAs, OPAs, etc, then build up to having them walk in and blindside them with a code scenario. This teaches them to work as a team, think on their feet, and the importance of knowing these skills. Whether it is BLS or ALS a code is a code and you have to do your best within your training limits to save a persons life and its no less of a "rush" reagardless of whether it is combitube or intubation.

Good Luck.

-CP

 

[nyc.ems]

bls can only provide the level of care that they learn.to provide als service will be hard.....1-because you dont the equipment on bls buses,2-if any thing happens you just went over your scope of practice...you can get in trouble;either licensed taken away or jail time...

 

[MMiz]

bls can only provide the level of care that they learn.to provide als service will be hard.....1-because you dont the equipment on bls buses,2-if any thing happens you just went over your scope of practice...you can get in trouble;either licensed taken away or jail time...

You're absolutely right. I was talking more along the lines of whether it was okay to demonstrate ALS skills to my students (7th grade) even though I'm only an EMT.

I really like my students, but I'm not feeling the whole jail time thing :glare:

 

[FFEMT1764]

Gee, I'm glad someone started this one...my service recently had and issue with this...seems someone acted beyond their scope of practice...now we have a wonderful "internal" investigation going on...I'm just waiting for my turn before the interrogators as it seems they are talking to everyone who has recently worked with this person......I wish that for once I wouldn't get stuck with the brand new fresh off probation basics that have a para-god complex...

 

[Jon]

Did you hear about the PA EMT who put a "-P" on his card, got a job as a medic, did the job, and now turned his EMT cert in after being found out???

 

[FFEMT1764]

OMG and that is scary moreso because the agency that hired him didnt verify with the state that he was a medic...every service around here always calls the state before hiring someone

 

[nyc.ems]

there are too many quick draw-migraws out here!! there is one thing we need to learn if were're ever giong to make as an emt-b...which is know who we are.we are not cops, fire fighters,als,(maybe investigaters depending where you work..new york is wild like that)we are EMTs.too many emts that get in trouble for nonsense.if emts want to do more go take the test for cops,ff,etc.let's get out there and have fun...our main goal is to make it home after every shift.....

 

[CaptainPanic]

Sheesh - I applied at MEMS and they want to know everything about you including what color your butt is.

They do state and FBI background checks, they want to you give a small questionnaire to yout former employers that ask questions like - whats this person on time, were they absent from work alot?, what was the reason for termination. blah blah blah. Which I think is a good thing, it weeds out those who wouldnt be good workers before the interview process, and as big as they are they have a very efficient hiring process which seems to work. Now I just hope all of my former employers have said good things about me and hopefully I will get a call back for an interview.

-CP

 

[FFEMT1764]

Alot of places are requiring FBI and state checks now, especially post 9-11...sure wouldnt want a terrorist to take a bus and fill it with c4 now would we.

 

[Jon]

Sheesh - I applied at MEMS and they want to know everything about you including what color your butt is.

They do state and FBI background checks, they want to you give a small questionnaire to yout former employers that ask questions like - whats this person on time, were they absent from work alot?, what was the reason for termination. blah blah blah. Which I think is a good thing, it weeds out those who wouldnt be good workers before the interview process, and as big as they are they have a very efficient hiring process which seems to work. Now I just hope all of my former employers have said good things about me and hopefully I will get a call back for an interview.

-CP

The one ambulance Co. I worked for that I left, at a time not of my choosing - they have a policy on references. They will verify Hire and Termination Dates, and that the employee was employed. Nothing more.

I explain this everytime I apply for a job. I also explain WHY I do not work there anymore (I would work an 16hour shift, get 4-5 hours of sleep, then work another 18+ hour shift, because they begged for folks to stay over). When I was late to work too many times on the second day, they fired me because of a "pattern of tardiness." . I was late because I stayed 18 hours for a 10 hour day.

 

[coloradoemt]

This is more for me than for them. I'm thinking is it unethical for me to be showing these skills.

As an instructer myself I believe it is only unethical to show someone how to perform the skills you are talking about the wrong way. And don't let them think they are going to get to perform these skills either.

 

[FFEMT1764]

Exactly..if they get the idea in their head that they can do it they will complain when they can't.