Actual experience providing field civilian medical care under fire?

[mycrofft]

My safety tools

 

[Luno]

Well fine then....

Here's my safety tools... Sorry, couldn't help it, it's just the armchair tactician in me...

 

[mycrofft]

Depends upon the location I guess. Either way the pt is not getting care.

(As I explained to my wife why the police officer had to shoot the bad guy five times, "Honey, sometimes you just have to empty the magazine").

 

[AnthonyM83]

The only flaw here is that a the sample is so small. I'm encouraged by the lively conversation.

MYCROFT - I disagree. The flaw is that I don't think most people know exactly what you're asking.

You also in effect created a Red Herring (kind of). You originally asked for examples about a situation that hardly anyone was claiming to exist . . . aka people wanting to use firearms to get to or extract a patient.

Unfortunately, for the posting, most people who do have to carry firearms in conjunction with their duty aren't dumb enough to post that information on a public forum.

I would change that to: Unfortunately, for the posting, most people who do carry firearms in EMS aren't dumb enough to use them to get to a patient.

1. Objects not intended as weapons are hard to characterize as lethal weapons unless the wielder has experience and training. They are also usually harder to hurt or kill people with, versus say a KBar knife or unmounting an E cylinder and braining someone with it.

It's all in how you use them. You can EASILY get yourself an Assault with Deadly Weapon charge here by attacking someone with a pen, a bat, a brick, an oxygen cylinder, scissors/shears. No special use or modification needed...just does it have the potential to kill you?

 

[Luno]

MYCROFT - I disagree. The flaw is that I don't think most people know exactly what you're asking.

You also in effect created a Red Herring (kind of). You originally asked for examples about a situation that hardly anyone was claiming to exist . . . aka people wanting to use firearms to get to or extract a patient.



I would change that to: Unfortunately, for the posting, most people who do carry firearms in EMS aren't dumb enough to use them to get to a patient.



It's all in how you use them. You can EASILY get yourself an Assault with Deadly Weapon charge here by attacking someone with a pen, a bat, a brick, an oxygen cylinder, scissors/shears. No special use or modification needed...just does it have the potential to kill you?

You're allowed your opinion, but until you spend significant time as a medic with a gun, whether remote/non-permissive, pmc, military, or tac-med, please refrain from the armchair quarterback role...

 

[mycrofft]

I am appreciating all input. Discussing how to make a better thread is a metasubject I think about time and again (I just can't seem to enact it always).

Not intended as a red herring, but if it (using threat or violence of weapons) sidetracked the subject, then guilty as charged.
===============================================
My intent is/was to invite any communication from any folks with firsthand experience in a civilian non-war setting where having purpose-made weapons, notably firearms but including knives, made their job treating then transporting patients possible. My secondary intent was/is to winnow off the folks who say they would feel safer with a firearm or knife, or read somewhere about it being done or planned for.

The forum is a harmless place to vent off about how cool it would be to pintle-mount a MaDeuce on the roof of the ambulance or wear a holster, but after reading such gushings over the years it gets sort of cumulative.

By the way, I have still not received any PM or emailed messages about such incidents.

 

[airborne2chairborne]

expand it to military I got a list for ya, lol.

To throw in a viewpoint which may be a motivating factor behind the whole "i want a gun i want a gun!!!" thing:
a firearm is like a safety blanket. In some ways more so to those of us whove trained with them and used them professionally and in other ways to those who haven't. Even going from military experience it acts more as a deterrent than anything else, opposed to someone who's new to firearms thinking "im invincible with this!" or "I HAVE THE POWER!!!" or even "thunder, thunder, THUNDER!". It's like hugging a teddy bear. It's also a bit like riding "safe seat" in a humvee. True its not over the gas tank and on the opposite side as most IEDs, but if something punches through that armor then the air between you and that isnt going to do jack :censored::censored::censored::censored: and neither does your distance from the gas tank if the whole thing goes up in flames. But it makes you feel safer for whatever reason. Again, this isn't a reason to carry them, but perhaps just an understanding of whatever drive to.

 

[AnthonyM83]

You're allowed your opinion, but until you spend significant time as a medic with a gun, whether remote/non-permissive, pmc, military, or tac-med, please refrain from the armchair quarterback role...

The original question asked about civilian situations. It would be EXTREMELY rare to locate situations in which use of a firearm by a civilian (non-military, non-police) was the best choice to gain access to a patient. I'm sure there are exceptions.

The reason MyCraft isn't getting replies is more likely that those civilians who do carry firearms realize it's not generally a good idea to use their gun to gain access to patients AND that they followed through with it. They probably wait for law enforcement as if they weren't carrying a gun. Even solo police officers who respond to our shooting scenes often wait for additional officers before facing a mob to give us access to the patient.

The civilian EMS gun carriers instead usually carry for self-defense, not specifically for patient care.

 

[DPM]

You're allowed your opinion, but until you spend significant time as a medic with a gun, whether remote/non-permissive, pmc, military, or tac-med, please refrain from the armchair quarterback role...

I've got plenty, am I allowed an opinion?

 

[Luno]

I've got plenty, am I allowed an opinion?

Rugby doesn't count... But seriously, there are far too many arm chair tacticians that opine and whine about availability of weapons without having the experience to back them up. Whether unreasonable fear of assault, liability, or weapons, these opinions bear very little relevance, especially from those who haven't carried a weapon for work.

 

[mycrofft]

I received one PM citing some harrowing incidents which I think would have benefited from having armed LE "riding shotgn".
Maybe the paradigm needs to shift in some area from FD to LE??

 

[EpiEMS]

I received one PM citing some harrowing incidents which I think would have benefited from having armed LE "riding shotgn".
Maybe the paradigm needs to shift in some area from FD to LE??

My system has PD respond to each and every call - it's technically a PD based system, but operates more like 3rd service (other than having PD at every call). It's great - not only do they get there first to start immediate life saving measures, but I know the scene is almost certainly safe every darn time.

 

[DPM]

The answer to this EMS safety problem should be PD based. That's one of the reasons we have Law Enforcement types in the first place. If the scene isn't safe, let the cops make it safe. Likewise, a gun isn't going to be much good in the back of the box if things do start going sideways.

Apart from Police based or military EMS, do any other developed countries routinely arm their medics?

 

[airborne2chairborne]

from my understanding Israel does. Granted it is a country that constantly hit with terrorist attacks so it's a bit different than here.

 

[mycrofft]

Israel has almost universal military service also, no? So people are hopefully trained in use of lethal force.

 

[airborne2chairborne]

its a conscript military, meaning everyone has to serve. there are a few exceptions in the cases of disabilities obviously. however there are a couple civil service jobs you can choose to do instead of military service, and I believe EMS is 1 of them.

 

[DPM]

As interesting as debating the ins and outs of the Magen David Adom, it is a system and a situation that is entirely detached from the US... so it isn't really relevant to the question at hand.

 

[mycrofft]

It might be an interesting comparison if we had a comparable social and political situation, thank heaven we don't.

Switzerland used to have universal military service, don't know if they still do, but again their ambulance services don't "go about armed" as the phrase goes.

And religious beliefs is another exemption, I believe? Or if you are of Palestinian/Arab/Persian etc extraction?

 

[airborne2chairborne]

I've seen people compare UK and US EMS a lot on here, it's completely detached too. But yes it is a totally different situation. There are some places in the US where the cops also act as BLS (aside for transport) if that counts?

 

[mycrofft]

First rescue units in the modern sense were NYC police dept., basic first aid, long before EMS was devised.