ACLS - Do's and Don't?

Jon said:
OK - My understanding of ACLS was that you needed to be a higher-level medical provider to be allowed to take the class... is that correct?
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Any medical provider can take the class. The only one they will actually give the physical ACLS card to are the providers that are Paramedic and higher. The others they may only provide CE's for, even that may not count towards an EMT recert though, it all depends on the county weather they will accept CE's for EMT's that take advanced classes.
 
As Vent pointed out, If you are in Medic,RT, or RN school, then you will receive a card. You must prove that you are in school at the time of the class.
 
As an EMT-B, one should focus on forming a solid education foundation.

Too much focus on too many certs too soon does not improve your overall knowledge base or quality of care.
 
VentMedic said:
As an EMT-B, one should focus on forming a solid education foundation.

Too much focus on too many certs too soon does not improve your overall knowledge base or quality of care.
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I could not agree more with vent. There are so many EMT's out there that want to go right into medic school before they have formed a solid foundation on how to render care on a live human being. I will admit some to cut it and some do get through but more often then not when you have someone who fails out of paramedic school it is the person with the least expierince as an EMT, and does not have the interpersonal skils to render care to someone.
 
I can understand the point that you all are making, but i didn't have to prove anything, I just told them i was a nursing student and they took my check and gave me a course guide to study before the class. (They didn't even tell me there was a provider manual... that would have been so much more helpful, i ended up doing a TON of research in my medical surgical text and online as preparation)

This may be the way that the industry is moving, in that the course is now so much easier to pass (our megacodes were openbook / team collaboration ) the only portion that we had to pass alone was the final little test at the end of the class.

I know this may anger some of the old school people who really had a MEGAcode, but i will tell you this in my defense. I was the only person there who actually studied for two weeks and actually KNEW all of my algorithms. I was in a class with experienced RNs and MDs whose employers were paying for the class for them. I'm not saying that they didn't know anything, but they were all very overconfident in that they admitted that they had not even cracked the book. I learned a great deal from my experience, but I do see that the standards are sub-par from what they used to be.

Also as a side note, i have, as of late on EMS applications, seen a check box for an "ACLS for Basics" certification class; albeit I've never seen one of those courses offered anywhere.
 
8jimi8 said:
I can understand the point that you all are making, but i didn't have to prove anything, I just told them i was a nursing student and they took my check and gave me a course guide to study before the class. (They didn't even tell me there was a provider manual... that would have been so much more helpful, i ended up doing a TON of research in my medical surgical text and online as preparation)

This may be the way that the industry is moving, in that the course is now so much easier to pass (our megacodes were openbook / team collaboration ) the only portion that we had to pass alone was the final little test at the end of the class.

I know this may anger some of the old school people who really had a MEGAcode, but i will tell you this in my defense. I was the only person there who actually studied for two weeks and actually KNEW all of my algorithms. I was in a class with experienced RNs and MDs whose employers were paying for the class for them. I'm not saying that they didn't know anything, but they were all very overconfident in that they admitted that they had not even cracked the book. I learned a great deal from my experience, but I do see that the standards are sub-par from what they used to be.

Also as a side note, i have, as of late on EMS applications, seen a check box for an "ACLS for Basics" certification class; albeit I've never seen one of those courses offered anywhere.
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The Basic class or BLCS they sometimes refer to it as, is just your basic CPR class.
 
Negative Ghostrider. The ACLS for the EMT-Basic course is basically a medic assist course. It teaches basics all of the helpful things like putting a patient on the monitor and spiking a bag. All of those things that should take a basic all of 5 minutes to learn how to do.
 
8jimi8 said:
I can understand the point that you all are making, but i didn't have to prove anything, I just told them i was a nursing student and they took my check and gave me a course guide to study before the class.
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Your nursing prerequisites did give you some educational foundation. As for the OP, the EMT-B does not adequately prepare one to take this course even as watered down as it is now. However, the course does expect one to have studied and be class ready. An EMT-B may not know where to begin to look for the information that is no longer in the ACLS book. The ACLS class for Basics would be more appropriate for an EMT-B to start with. Again, just collecting certs does not necessarily make on a better provider.

I, myself, have sat through some classes that I couldn't even tell you what the class was about 10 minutes after it ended. Yet, I still got a certificate of completion.
 
NorCalMedic said:
VentMedic said:
As an EMT-B, one should focus on forming a solid education foundation.

Too much focus on too many certs too soon does not improve your overall knowledge base or quality of care.
Click to expand...
I could not agree more with vent. There are so many EMT's out there that want to go right into medic school before they have formed a solid foundation on how to render care on a live human being.
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You definitely misunderstood Vent's point. And your experience seems to be quite different from the other instructors on this forum.

Vent was referring to EDUCATION, not experience. There is no solid education foundation established through field experience as an EMT-B. That foundation is established in the classroom. Experience is not education. Experience is building upon the foundation. And there is no significant foundation established in a 110 hour first aid course. Vent was advising our friend here to stay in school and take the scientific foundation courses that build the foundation necessary for competent paramedic practice. She was not advising him to play ambulance driver for some IFT company for a couple of years just to have some worthless experience and bad habits to put on paper to impress some paramedic school admission committee who doesn't have the slightest clue about the fundamentals of adult educational theory.

And most intelligent instructors and co-ordinators that I know will tell you that they have much better luck educating those with less EMT experience than those with more. That has certainly been my observation in the last twenty-five years. Having lived there for years, I do understand that this is contrary to the conventional wisdom in California, where three decades of progress seems to have had no effect on their ability to do things they way they have always done them, blissfully unaware that there is a better way. But this is a proven concept, and the only people who don't seem to see it are those who refuse to see it.
 
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Correct A.J.

People want to rush off and get as many letters behind their name without any real education to back them up. This includes ACLS, PALS and NRP instructor certs, CCEMTP and all the other fancy initials.

We even have had Paramedics wanting to take an NRP Instructor Cert course solely based on the fact that was the only card they didn't have.

I fully believe the only length of time you should spend as an EMT-B is the time it takes you to finish Paramedic school. Of course, if that is done properly, you can still get at least a year on a BLS truck. But, you will be thinking about your patients with an advanced point of view. It does an EMT-B little good to just watch "cool" things being done if one does not understand the reasons behind them. At least as a Paramedic student you will be observing what you are studying. I also believe that at least one and preferably two college level A&P classes should be completed prior to EMT-B. Then that time spent on a BLS truck might mean something if you can better understand what parts of the body you are looking at. One might even recognize some of the medical terminology if they read more than the patient's face sheet to actually know anything about the patient they are transporting.

Ex. dialysis patients: few EMT-Bs even know why the patient is one dialysis except for "kidney failure". Few also know what medical time bombs they are transporting and the many systems that could fail at anytime.

Link to the thread listing the many different extra certs:
http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=11279&highlight=certifications
 
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VentMedic said:
Your nursing prerequisites did give you some educational foundation. As for the OP, the EMT-B does not adequately prepare one to take this course even as watered down as it is now. However, the course does expect one to have studied and be class ready. An EMT-B may not know where to begin to look for the information that is no longer in the ACLS book. The ACLS class for Basics would be more appropriate for an EMT-B to start with. Again, just collecting certs does not necessarily make on a better provider.

I, myself, have sat through some classes that I couldn't even tell you what the class was about 10 minutes after it ended. Yet, I still got a certificate of completion.
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I definitely agree, that I had a base of education to help me through the class. Again I completely agree that ACLS is completely out of scope for a Basic. I was just commenting on the fact that there wasn't any "prove you are a nursing student, portion of my class." In fact I tried to back out of the class and reschedule it for a few months down the line because I wasn't confident that I had learned all of the information well enough. Funny because the teacher calmed me down and told me that I would do fine in the class and when I showed up, I was the only one who had prepared~

I even ran into one of my nursing instructors, taking the course, who told me I had a lot of nerve to show up to that class.

In answer to the OP. It is out of scope for a basic. There is little more that you can do other than helping to apply the 12 lead and grabbing medications for your Medic.
 
8jimi8 said:
I even ran into one of my nursing instructors, taking the course, who told me I had a lot of nerve to show up to that class.
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In what sense did she intend that?
 
AJ Hidell said:
In what sense did she intend that?
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I don't know if this is the case here, but I do know there are some schools that do believe in a structured progression of learning/education and advanced procedures should be done after a solid foundation is finished. In a way I do agree as I have seen nursing students do a rotation through ICU too soon who had not quite gotten the hang of assessing a fairly healthy patient but are now put to task with a train wreck.

This also happens when CCEMTP graduates ask to spend a day observing in one of our ICUs. I always hope we have ECMO running just so I can see the look on their faces. Also, few know what a real hypothermia protocol consists of until they see it done in an ICU. Sometimes I think some of these CCEMTP grads are just for my amusement and not really for taking care of patients on CCTs.
 
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I think she just meant that it was an advanced course and I was only a level 3 student. (I hadn't even studied the cardiac module yet, we didn't learn that one until level 4).
 
Right. But did she mean it in an indignant, "how dare you!" sort of sense?

Or did she mean it in an encouraging, "good for you!" kind of way?
 
Oh it was definitely a positive statment :) This is an instructor that I had a great rapport with and I definitely feel that she was impressed with my drive to exceed the minimum education requirements. I most definitely took it as a compliment.
 
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