A very confused club team?

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WuLabsWuTecH

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Hi Guys,

It's been awhile since I've been here, but I'm not currently working (well I am, just not as an EMT) as I'm back at school for the year full time. Here's my situation/question, followed by my point of view. Please give me your thoughts/comments.

The a certain club team at my university is hosting an invitational/event that they want event EMS for. One of my friends is on the team and wanted to know if I am licensed as an EMT. I said yes, and much to my surprise, she asked me if I could act as event EMS for them. My initial reply was "Of course not, unless you have a medical director, equipment, etc. etc., that's what a private EMS company is for." From what I understand, they thought that hiring an EMS company was too expensive since there is little risk, but they also didn't want to ask the on campus EMS team since everyone on campus thinks that they are kind of a joke (not their fault, they are a HUGE team with few incidents to begin with, so each EMT sees very little action (if any at all) each month).

Anyway, she has come to ask me again, because they want to be able to say that they have hired an EMT for the occasion, and I've made it clear that without medical control, there is little I can do except basic first aid and CPR that I've learned outside of my EMS training. She said that she'll get back to me and that they may look for a school nurse from a local high school or something. I'm not sure she/her team is understanding how event EMS works, and that even if they found a nurse who is an ER nurse, she can't do anything without medical control. I'm not sure how to reply at this point, as it has become clear to me none of these students understand the purpose and operations of EMS, as as they are a club team, there is no guidance from university policies as to what they have to do (certain varsity sports at our school MUST have event EMS and contact sports MUST have 2 Medics if I remember the athletic dept.'s policies correctly).


So here is my understanding, please correct me if I am wrong:

1) As an EMT w/o medical control, there is little I can legally do. I don't think I can even assess a patient? much less provide interventions.

2) It would be worthless on their part anyway since I doubt they have the full spectrum of EMS gear.

3) An RN would be able to little more than me without the nurse equivalent of "Medical Control". And if she were not an ER or Unit Nurse, maybe even less than I.

4) (question)- What's up with everyone thinking that they can just hire EMTs w/o medical control or equipment? My friend here turns down people for the same type of requests, but he's never given it much thought as he's not licensed in Missouri to begin with, but earlier this year, some kid's park wanted to hire him as an EMT but w/o more than a first aid station at his disposal!

Thanks for your input guys!
-Wu
 
As far as I know it would depend on the state that you are practicing in and what their good Samaritan laws state. Usually you can function up to your training equivalence and you are covered under good Samaritan.

You have to figure that all you would be functioning as is a first responder. Just stabilize the patient until EMS arrives. You shouldn't need to be covered by medical control.

The only thing to me that's kinda sketchy is being hired out by them. That's the only part that legally i'm not sure of. Because that is kind of giving you a duty to act. So for that I'm not sure about.

But other than that like say you were there just watching the event as a bystander and something happens. You could step in, use your training to the best of your ability. Assist until EMS arrives and you would be fine because you're functioning as a first responder. I see nothing wrong with that.
 
As Jaybro713 stated, check your state laws to see what you can actually do. I'm don't see why you couldn't fully act as an EMT-B since that is what your state currently has you licensed at. You still must follow local protocols. Another thing to check out is insurance. It can be illegal to work as a "freelance" EMT without having proper malpractice insurance.
 
WuLabsWuTecH said:
Hi Guys,

1) As an EMT w/o medical control, there is little I can legally do. I don't think I can even assess a patient? much less provide interventions.

3) An RN would be able to little more than me without the nurse equivalent of "Medical Control". And if she were not an ER or Unit Nurse, maybe even less than I.
-Wu
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Sports trainers, Nurses and Lifeguards often provide first aid at sporting events without medical control. Nurses and EMTs often work at camps without medical control. Nurses and EMTs will give out prescribed medications to campers. There is no problem if you stand at a sporting event with a store bought first aid kit and hand out band aids. Just make sure they foot the bill for it. You can write names down and what not if you feel the need to document. You don't need medical control for assessing patients. Your allowed to ask people medical questions. They have the right to not answer. If something serious occurs, you call 911 anyway. Than can provide first aid until the 911 ambulance arrives.
 
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Firecoins is absolutely right. There is nothing that you are going to do at the side lines of a sporting event besides give out band aids and stabilize any serious injury until a transport EMS unit arrives.

What does concern me however is that you said that your school has a campus EMS team. It was always my impression that the purpose of campus EMS was based largely in part to cover events such as these.

Short answer, you'll be absolutely fine being the "First Aid" guy at any event. Long answer must involve your Campus EMS system and what has gone awry with it.
 
involve the Campus EMS? What od you mean by that?

The main issue is that since MO is on 5 year renewal of licensure and most of them will only be here 4 years, they don't do ANY CEUs and with the small volume of calls on campus and such a large team, some of them can go a month or more without any calls and months at a time for anything other than intox calls.

They were originally a first responder unit to help between the time that I called for help and the city got here with the truck (they don't have a truck of their own). But recently, sometimes they get there after the city gets there (which is another issue that needs to be addressed).

Anyway, the events will happen off campus which is why campus EMS doesn't automatically cover it, and since some people think they have a bad reputation around here, the coach probably didn't want to hire one of their off duty guys.
 
Ah, the off campus thing makes much more sense. How large of a school do you go to? How is the Campus EMS dispatched?
 
That's why I got the AHA First Aid cert. It's not like anything I'd be doing is really above that level (it includes O2, AED, etc), and it requires no medical control.
 
Mmiz, how do you get O2 without med control. Legally medical oxygen is a drug and must be "prescribed" by a doc somewhere so you'd still have to have physician input to have access to medical O2. I didn't read the code you posted so I can't tell you specifically for your state but outside of O2 almost every intervention you learn as a basic could be done by joe blow bystander and even more as joe blow can assist administration of any meds and as a joe blow first aid provider you can even give them a cup of water to wash down the aspirin.

You may want to consult the legal department at your school but I would think that if you agree to do it they can say that they hired an EMT because you are an EMT however you can't practice at that level for the event. Maybe R/r or vent can step in here but I believe nurses can do more without direct medical oversight because of the license vs certification bit but I'm not 100% on that.
 
marineman said:
Mmiz, how do you get O2 without med control. Legally medical oxygen is a drug and must be "prescribed" by a doc somewhere so you'd still have to have physician input to have access to medical O2. I didn't read the code you posted so I can't tell you specifically for your state but outside of O2 almost every intervention you learn as a basic could be done by joe blow bystander and even more as joe blow can assist administration of any meds and as a joe blow first aid provider you can even give them a cup of water to wash down the aspirin.

You may want to consult the legal department at your school but I would think that if you agree to do it they can say that they hired an EMT because you are an EMT however you can't practice at that level for the event. Maybe R/r or vent can step in here but I believe nurses can do more without direct medical oversight because of the license vs certification bit but I'm not 100% on that.
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That's what everyone says because that's what everyone has been told. That is absolutely incorrect.

I spent hours and hours contacting my local EMS, medical control, hospital, and then I started calling the FDA, pharmacy licensing, doctor, and other licensing/regulatory board.

Oxygen equipment intended for emergency can be used without a prescription. Such equipment must deliver a minimum flow rate of 6 liters of oxygen per minute for a minimum of 15 minutes. It must be labeled "FOR EMERGENCY USE" while listing no conditions. Unless you have a connection, good luck trying to find someone willing to fill it though.

Unfortunately while everyone in my small town agreed, no one wanted to rock the boat.
 
Learn something new every day. This must mean I'm done for the day and it's time for bed.
 
yes, i would like to hear an opinion from r/r on this one.

And if they were looking for just a name, would nurse sound better to the general population than EMT?
 
Actually not everyone can purchase oxygen. As I have seen and witnessed it first hand for patients that needed a prescription, as it is a medication.

Now, with that saying many distributors may or some states may allow rescue services to purchase oxygen for medical use without a prescription. Alike some other states some may not have detailed regulations, but remember even cervical collars technically require a physician orders to purchase and carry, although never enforced.

Hence the reason nursing homes may not have oxygen upon a patient. Seriously, unless they have an order for such they are practicing medicine without a license. Most will have a standing order alike EMS.

I do agree that most procedures is very simplistic and the common "Joe" can sometimes can do more than a Basic EMT due to restraints placed upon them.
R/r 911
 
Our O2 'prescription' is a standing order from our medical program director.

As far as EMS standby, I think the main reasons events want an EMT to do standby is to be able to triage and avoid a serious injury being ignored. I do many of these. Most of them are outside of my districts boundaries, but within the jurisdiction of my MPD.

My job is basically first aid. I do a lot of splinting, bandaging, beestings and general illness. Aside from that, if anything requires BLS, I'm the one that calls 911 for the emergency response. Most are sent to the ER in their POV. But we have had a few serious injuries that required ALS for multi system trauma.

Having an EMT on scene prevents the helpful joe bystander from moving the spinal injury patient, popping that shoulder back in, and telling the head injury to get back on his bike and take another run at the hill. At many events its a requirement of the liability insurance folks.
 
ridryder 911 said:
Actually not everyone can purchase oxygen. As I have seen and witnessed it first hand for patients that needed a prescription, as it is a medication.

Now, with that saying many distributors may or some states may allow rescue services to purchase oxygen for medical use without a prescription. Alike some other states some may not have detailed regulations, but remember even cervical collars technically require a physician orders to purchase and carry, although never enforced.

Hence the reason nursing homes may not have oxygen upon a patient. Seriously, unless they have an order for such they are practicing medicine without a license. Most will have a standing order alike EMS.

I do agree that most procedures is very simplistic and the common "Joe" can sometimes can do more than a Basic EMT due to restraints placed upon them.
R/r 911
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Uhhh what's with your username?
 
It seems Rid has a new account for some reason. But the profile seems old. He has way more than 140 posts.
 
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