150 Hours?

[mikie]

So I'm sitting in class (Intro to EMS systems) and the prof. said that the ~100 hour EMT course is about to be 150 hours. Has anyone heard of this? Is this true?


*Let's not argue whether or not it is enough and whatnot ,rather the truth behind his claim and what will be added/elaborated upon.

Thanks!

 

[Ridryder911]

Most EMT courses are already 150 hours in length. Most are increasing to 200 hours to meet the required new EMT curriculum or what all other EMT's and EMT/I will have to take is a transitional course.

R/r 911

 

[mikie]

Most EMT courses are already 150 hours in length. Most are increasing to 200 hours to meet the required new EMT curriculum or what all other EMT's and EMT/I will have to take is a transitional course.

R/r 911

So what will be added or changed in this "new" curriculum?

 

[Ridryder911]

Bill Brown wrote an article in this months JEMS in regards to this.

http://www.jems.com/news_and_articles/articles/jems/3309/from_fragmentation_to_unity.html


R/r911

 

[ILemt]

Having read the article, it doesn't seem that Basics...ehem... "EMT's" will be doing anything different, aside from "possible changes in assessment"

So is the additional time spent on Assessment and Documentation?

 

[Ridryder911]

Actually there is an increase in the length of anatomy, more detailed assessment including more focus on medical assessments, and some additional knowledge in assisting Paramedics.

R/r 911

 

[ILemt]

With all due respect, what is the point in adding more detail to BLS medical assessments? We don't carry drugs, or monitor so what additional "good" is supposed to come from this?

Personally, I wish that basics were brought up to the old I-85 standard, but that won't happen in my lifetime.

 

[wxduff]

With all due respect, what is the point in adding more detail to BLS medical assessments? We don't carry drugs, or monitor so what additional "good" is supposed to come from this?

Personally, I wish that basics were brought up to the old I-85 standard, but that won't happen in my lifetime.

That's not necessarily true. At least in New York, the EMT-B program has slowly been absorbing bits and pieces of the EMT-I program here.

If you didn't know, NYS has 4 Levels of EMT:
EMT-Basic
EMT-Intermediate
AEMT-Critical Care Technician
AEMT-Paramedic

I think that the state is trying to raise the level of the basic up to what is currently the intermediate. I don't think there are a lot of differences anyway, except that EMT-Intermediates can start IV's and few little things. So eliminating a level cleans things up.

If New York is doing away with EMT-I and integrating it with Basic then good for it. By doing that it's only the lowest level of care higher. And raising the bar is never a bad thing.

 

[JPINFV]

With all due respect, what is the point in adding more detail to BLS medical assessments? We don't carry drugs, or monitor so what additional "good" is supposed to come from this?

Personally, I wish that basics were brought up to the old I-85 standard, but that won't happen in my lifetime.

Not in your area and not yet. Where I worked as an EMT-B, the only drug on an EMT-B ambulance was oxygen. Charcoal wasn't in the normal SOP for EMT-B per state statute and the county, at the very least since there was no written real written treatment protocol for basics and oral glucose wasn't required to be carried on a EMT-B unit, oral glucose was considered out of SOP for the county (to be harshly honest, if you need a protocol to know when to apply O2, you need a refund on your EMT-B class tuition). On the other hand, there are services and locations across the country that have their EMT-Bs administering CPAP, administering beta-2 agonists, performing 12-lead EKGs (even if they don't interpret it), using pulse oximetry, obtaining blood glucose levels, and probably a ton of other things that I can only imagine doing with 110 hours of training.

At least for me, it's kinda of hard to justify giving an unsupervised provider (and, yes, EMS is rarely under direct physician supervision and radio contact doesn't really come close) the power to administer drugs and perform interventions if they can not explain why the patient needs it and how that intervention is going to change their patient to gain the desired change. 2 hours of A/P (per current NHTSA National Standard Curriculum) does not come close to providing providers the education needed to achieve that goal. Furthermore, how can anyone justify giving basics more interventions if the education that they have on A/P is rivaled by that which is received by a student taking high school biology? To be honest, the status quo doesn't take 110 hours of training either. I can train anyone to slap on a NRB at 15LPM, call medics, and haul butt to the hospital if the patient looks sick in a few hours if we really don't need to know any of that fancy scientific thingamajig.

 

[bstone]

Interesting. I-99s are getting a free ride to medic. My Intermediate course was about 80% that of I-99, but fell short from it totally. We know and were trained greatly above and beyond I-85 but we had to test for it, so I am an I-85 Intermediate with training closer to that of an I-99. It's a shame, really, as I wouldn't mind a free ride (just a class) to medic.

 

[bstone]

Interesting. I-99s are getting a free ride to medic. My Intermediate course was about 80% that of I-99, but fell short from it totally. We know and were trained greatly above and beyond I-85 but we had to test for it, so I am an I-85 Intermediate with training closer to that of an I-99. It's a shame, really, as I wouldn't mind a free ride (just a class) to medic.

In addition, I know that with another semester of classes (140 hours or so) I could easily bridge the knowledge gap to I-99 (we used the I-99 book and had to read all the sections and be tested on them, even tho we were being certified only as I-85). In this class I could forsee that we could also do the medic transition, tho that might be a bit of a leap. Minimially we can do the full I-99 transition.

 

[triemal04]

Interesting. I-99s are getting a free ride to medic. My Intermediate course was about 80% that of I-99, but fell short from it totally. We know and were trained greatly above and beyond I-85 but we had to test for it, so I am an I-85 Intermediate with training closer to that of an I-99. It's a shame, really, as I wouldn't mind a free ride (just a class) to medic.

In addition, I know that with another semester of classes (140 hours or so) I could easily bridge the knowledge gap to I-99 (we used the I-99 book and had to read all the sections and be tested on them, even tho we were being certified only as I-85). In this class I could forsee that we could also do the medic transition, tho that might be a bit of a leap. Minimially we can do the full I-99 transition.

Welcome to yet another installation of the classic series, "why EMS is being held back in America."

If you want to be a paramedic, take a real, quality paramedic course. If you want the skills, treatement options, knowledge, etc, see the above. Don't take some halfassed "upgrade;" it won't be worth the paper your cert if printed on.

So much for any improvements in certification standards happening anytime soon.

 

[bstone]

Welcome to yet another installation of the classic series, "why EMS is being held back in America."

If you want to be a paramedic, take a real, quality paramedic course. If you want the skills, treatement options, knowledge, etc, see the above. Don't take some halfassed "upgrade;" it won't be worth the paper your cert if printed on.

So much for any improvements in certification standards happening anytime soon.

Seemingly, the NREMT disagrees with you.

And nurses have all sorts of upgrade/transition classes.

 

[EMT-P633]

Seemingly, the NREMT disagrees with you.

And nurses have all sorts of upgrade/transition classes.

Take a look at alot of the NREMT medics, alot of them are not worth the ink it took to print thier certs. Not all of them. but alot. Yes NREMT is finally making correct progress to unite EMS so our benifits / pay can be more on par for the amount of care we are able to provide to our patients. Let alone the amount of responsibility that comes with that big "P" on the shoulder

Now look at alot of nurses. same goes for them. and many of them can not make a the treatment decision with out a doctors prior assessment and authorization. Yet medics do it everyday. This is refering mostly to average run of the mill nurses. Not the specialized nursing fields.

 

[Code 3]

Take a look at alot of the NREMT medics, alot of them are not worth the ink it took to print thier certs. Not all of them. but alot.

I'm not sure I follow this statement. As far as I know, NREMT isn't a medic school. If you are running into "poor" medics that have a NREMT-P cert, then blame needs to placed on the individual and the program they attended. I'm not sure how you can say the majority of NREMT-P's are poor when all the NREMT does is testing and not schooling.

Now look at alot of nurses. same goes for them. and many of them can not make a the treatment decision with out a doctors prior assessment and authorization. Yet medics do it everyday.

This is comparing apples to oranges. You can't compare hospital care to pre-hospital care because they do not have the same staffing system or procedures. If your unit consisted of an EMT-B, EMT-P, and MD/RN then I'm pretty sure you would take a backseat to the MD/RN and they would perform the initial assessment.

Please understand, this is not meant to be a personal attack by any means. I'm just trying to fully understand what you're saying.

 

[triemal04]

Seemingly, the NREMT disagrees with you.

And nurses have all sorts of upgrade/transition classes.

1. NREMT mean's squat; it'd be nice if it meant more, and maybe someday it will, but as it stands now...means nothing.

2. The national registry standards are very, very lax, and that is reflected in the quality of the NR test...so easy my dead grandma could pass it.

3. Did you really make a comparison between RN's and paramedics? For this situation? Good lord but that was just silly. And ridiculous. An intermediate being "upgraded" to a paramedic is not the same as an RN who decides to specialize in anesthesia...completely different. Someone who is a lower level than an RN (like a CNA or LPN) does not take an upgrade to become an RN...they take the actual courses that are required.

You want to have people call you a paramedic? Take the time to become one, don't look for some backdoor way just to make yourself feel better. (That was a generic you. Unless that applies to YOU, in which case it wasn't. :wacko: )

 

[bstone]

1. NREMT mean's squat; it'd be nice if it meant more, and maybe someday it will, but as it stands now...means nothing.

2. The national registry standards are very, very lax, and that is reflected in the quality of the NR test...so easy my dead grandma could pass it.

3. Did you really make a comparison between RN's and paramedics? For this situation? Good lord but that was just silly. And ridiculous. An intermediate being "upgraded" to a paramedic is not the same as an RN who decides to specialize in anesthesia...completely different. Someone who is a lower level than an RN (like a CNA or LPN) does not take an upgrade to become an RN...they take the actual courses that are required.

You want to have people call you a paramedic? Take the time to become one, don't look for some backdoor way just to make yourself feel better. (That was a generic you. Unless that applies to YOU, in which case it wasn't. :wacko: )

1 & 2. I think people will take issue with your characterization of the NREMT. Their tests are difficult and not everyone passes on the first or even second try. Plus they are doing a lot in order to make becoming a medic more demanding- such as requiring accreditation for programs in a few years.

3. There are indeed "upgrade" or "transition" courses for CNA to LPN and LPN to RN. I have seen them and a good search can reveal many of them. Gosh, I even found this online LPN to RN program: http://www.rncentral.com/nursing-programs/lpn-rn-transition

4. I am happy to go through the education required to become a medic, but I'll just become a physician instead. I'm your next medical director.

 

[Ridryder911]

I'll solve this argument. EMT I-99 will be a thing of the past. NREMT will no longer even recognize or test them beginning next year. As they seen a trend of many used in lieu of Paramedics as well as a "cheap way to have a pseudo Paramedic".

Also beginning next year or when the new standards are officially installed ..
the title of the Paramedic will NO BE LONGER BE EMT-P! (YEAH!!!!!) It will be simply be PARAMEDIC.. no mention of EMT anywhere, notta, nope.. not there.

R/r 911

 

[bstone]

I'll solve this argument. EMT I-99 will be a thing of the past. NREMT will no longer even recognize or test them beginning next year. As they seen a trend of many used in lieu of Paramedics as well as a "cheap way to have a pseudo Paramedic".

Also beginning next year or when the new standards are officially installed ..
the title of the Paramedic will NO BE LONGER BE EMT-P! (YEAH!!!!!) It will be simply be PARAMEDIC.. no mention of EMT anywhere, notta, nope.. not there.

R/r 911

Rid, any idea how long the I-99 to Paramedic bridge course would be?

 

[triemal04]

1 & 2. I think people will take issue with your characterization of the NREMT. Their tests are difficult and not everyone passes on the first or even second try. Plus they are doing a lot in order to make becoming a medic more demanding- such as requiring accreditation for programs in a few years.

3. There are indeed "upgrade" or "transition" courses for CNA to LPN and LPN to RN. I have seen them and a good search can reveal many of them. Gosh, I even found this online LPN to RN program: http://www.rncentral.com/nursing-programs/lpn-rn-transition

4. I am happy to go through the education required to become a medic, but I'll just become a physician instead. I'm your next medical director.

This is an issue for another thread, so I'll leave it at this: if people take issue with my assessment that the NR test is to easy...to bad. It is. While they may not be written in the best way, the tests are not a good gauge on the testee's knowledge level. As well, the practical portion focuses far to much on the simple skills we have, and not our critical thinking and assessment abilities.

I do like NR requiring acreditation, that's great, and a step in the right direction. Hopefully it'll help things, but as it is now, it may not; you still don't have to be certified with the National Registry. Regardless of that, it still doesn't change the fact that the test is pretty lousy.

Did you notice that in all those programs (all the ones I looked at) there are multiple prereq's required before you enter the program? Not just having your LPN? It's almost like they want you to go through the same thing's as all the other RN's...minus a couple of classes.

Paramedic education is allready bad enough without people wanting "a free ride" into it. The course is allready short enough that a "transition" would be worthless. Far to many people are getting a lousy education from the classes after taking the whole thing; why make it easier for someone to come out with even LESS knowledge?

I highly doubt that you'll be anyones medical director, but good luck with that anyway. I am curious though...if at some point far, far, FAR in the future you got lucky enough to be in that position, would you still want uneducated people who got a "free ride" because they were grandfathered in or did a 100 hour transition working under your licensce? Or would you only want highly educated, well trained personell?