New York's Poorest

Thanks, JPINV.
 
It is a shame our profession makes so little, yet again; what can we expect to receive with a little education? Seriously, take a 150 hour course or so, not bad pay for a advanced first aid course. Now, evaluate this in comparison to those with the same number of correlating hours. For example manicurists has more required hours and clinical time.. and they may make less. There are far more individuals that attended more training and make less than EMT's. Ironically, one should not compare salaries solely based upon amount.. the NYC/ EMT's are making about half the amount of ER Physicians are making here.

This all goes back to trade/vocation instead of education... alike everything else, it all goes back to education. Want more money, we will have to become educated to become a professional.

I am totally against mandatory overtime if one's work week already includes overtime.

R/r 911
 
Ridryder911 said:
It is a shame our profession makes so little, yet again; what can we expect to receive with a little education? Seriously, take a 150 hour course or so, not bad pay for a advanced first aid course. Now, evaluate this in comparison to those with the same number of correlating hours. For example manicurists has more required hours and clinical time.. and they may make less. There are far more individuals that attended more training and make less than EMT's. Ironically, one should not compare salaries solely based upon amount.. the NYC/ EMT's are making about half the amount of ER Physicians are making here.

This all goes back to trade/vocation instead of education... alike everything else, it all goes back to education. Want more money, we will have to become educated to become a professional.

I am totally against mandatory overtime if one's work week already includes overtime.

R/r 911
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If education is the directly proportionate gauge for setting salary, then why do NYC's garbage collectors make more than EMTs? Which city employees complete more training and get paid less than $27K in New York City? If I'm an ER physician making $54K, I'm going to seek employment elsewhere to pay back my student loads, or go back into the military, where I was making more money.

I agree with you on the OT. I would want my EMTs to get enough rest so I know that they're not treating patients while exhausted.
 
The reason garbage collectors makes more is because you do not see people flocking to volunteer, nor see the "attraction" enough to make their personal vehicles as "garbage trucks", or have the "flashing lights" and toys associated with EMS. It is not one of those "neat & fun" jobs.

I would imagine they probably have as much in-service education per hour length than the Basic EMT level.

Albeit, a poor and shameful disgraceful pay structure, yet again; what other profession only requires 150 hours in length especially in health care? .... What do you expect a phleb or nurse aide to make?

The article describes that they can max out at $54,000 dollars in 20 years. An ER physician in my area (board certified) averages little over a $100,000 per year (of course they can make more if they work O.T.) I just discussed with one ER physician ( a former Paramedic, he makes $ 180,000 a year... - $38,0000 for malpractice, $25,000 school loans, etc..)

Want EMS to make more... remove the EMT level and require an degree Paramedic. This has been proven over & over in other health care professions of removing & increasing the license level.

R/r 911
 
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Ridryder911 said:
It is a shame our profession makes so little, yet again; what can we expect to receive with a little education? Seriously, take a 150 hour course or so, not bad pay for a advanced first aid course. Now, evaluate this in comparison to those with the same number of correlating hours. For example manicurists has more required hours and clinical time.. and they may make less. There are far more individuals that attended more training and make less than EMT's. Ironically, one should not compare salaries solely based upon amount.. the NYC/ EMT's are making about half the amount of ER Physicians are making here.

This all goes back to trade/vocation instead of education... alike everything else, it all goes back to education. Want more money, we will have to become educated to become a professional.

R/r 911
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Education should not be the sole factor consiudering how much work NYC EMT-Bs actually do. But NYC EMTs go through much more than 150 hours of education. Its not just an EMT-B class. One must be an EMT-B to apply. Than it takes 2.5 to 3 months in the academy once hired. The academy repreats the EMT-B class applicants already took plus EVOC and physical fitness training. Than you must ride for a month with an FTO to make sure you doing things correctly. Tahn they work in the busiest systems in the country. They do deserve more pay.

But yes EMT-Bs need more education

Ironically, one should not compare salaries solely based upon amount.. the NYC/ EMT's are making about half the amount of ER Physicians are making here
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Actually its not that ironic. NYC has a much higher cost of living than most places in the country sometime more than double what it costs elsewhere. NYC EMT-Bs don't make enough to live in NYC and medics don't make off much better.
 
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Ridryder911 said:
The reason garbage collectors makes more is because you do not see people flocking to volunteer, nor see the "attraction" enough to make their personal vehicles as "garbage trucks", or have the "flashing lights" and toys associated with EMS. It is not one of those "neat & fun" jobs.

I would imagine they probably have as much in-service education per hour length than the Basic EMT level.

Albeit, a poor and shameful disgraceful pay structure, yet again; what other profession only requires 150 hours in length especially in health care? .... What do you expect a phleb or nurse aide to make?

The article describes that they can max out at $54,000 dollars in 20 years. An ER physician in my area (board certified) averages little over a $100,000 per year (of course they can make more if they work O.T.) I just discussed with one ER physician ( a former Paramedic, he makes $ 180,000 a year... - $38,0000 for malpractice, $25,000 school loans, etc..)

Want EMS to make more... remove the EMT level and require an degree Paramedic. This has been proven over & over in other health care professions of removing & increasing the license level.

R/r 911
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R/r 911,

Applicants aren't flocking to join FDNY EMS. It's a known fact that there is an EMT/Paramedic shortage in FDNY, which is why there's mandatory overtime. Reportedly, 120+ EMTs/Paramedics are quitting this summer. Just as firecoins mentioned, FDNY EMTs not only have to complete EMT school on the outside to get their NY state EMT certification, they have to do it all over again in the Academy. Newly NYC-certified Paramedics already working as FDNY EMTs have to go through the Paramedic program at the Academy even AFTER they've completed Paramedic school on the outside.

$54K in NYC is nothing, much less $27K. Almost EVERYTHING in NYC is more expensive than most parts of the country, especially rent. I don't know how long I'd be able to work as a FDNY EMT on that salary, but I didn't go to EMT school to become a millionaire, just like most of us.

I agree with you both on upping the ante. There should be more mandatory education to begin with...
 
Even if additional training it would still be less than 1000 hours.. less than a beautician. Now with that I do understand the shortage.. I have met EMT's and Paramedics on EMS forums from FDNYC EMS and have heard the disgruntled employees. Especially those between FD and EMS division. The shame that EMS is really a stepchild of the FD, as usual in most FD's. One of the reasons I am against EMS in Fire Services.

Again, until we can "justify" our existence and prove that one cannot be replaced by someone that will work for free or can be easily replaced, we will continue to see this trend.

R/r 911
 
Ridryder911 said:
The reason garbage collectors makes more is because you do not see people flocking to volunteer, nor see the "attraction" enough to make their personal vehicles as "garbage trucks", or have the "flashing lights" and toys associated with EMS. It is not one of those "neat & fun" jobs.
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Actually this was a topic of discussion in a sociology class I took some years back. The reason proposed by those conducting the study was, that when the garbage backs up on the street and the garbage collectors go on strike (which they can because nobody dies) The stench and the smell causes the citizenry to call their city aldermen. Also, garbagemen are generally unionized and most commonly Teamsters.

EMS has fought the idea of unionization. But if the profession is to change, it needs to combine and organize with other systems and do it as a unit. Otherwise we'll just be pissing in the ocean.
 
quit complaining, when we took the job, when we went to school it was never about the money and we knew it. i quit a job making way more money than i do know with less hours and less workload...i don't complain about something i knew about in advance.
 
It is most likely not my place to comment on the article with regards to NYC. I will try to relate to the issue of more pay as we experience it on our side...

When reading the article, i first compaired our income to that was mentioned. Money wise, i would say that is more or less on par, but one has to take into account the difference in cost of living as well the amount of hours worked. We don't have compulsary OT as a rule, however there are limitations as to how much you can do, it is also taxed fairly heavily.

There is no specific union that we can join, only allied health workers unions (Nurses), which is not really tailor made for us. The manor in which the majority of our country's workforce obtain better wages and working conditions is to: Strike (Down Tools). However this practice is only reserved for those belonging to a union, and NOT for the EMS which is seen as a essential service. They are only allowed to do a "Go-Slow", ie, you don't have to service non priority calls...

With us, every time you go up a level (BLS-ILS-ALS), you get an increase, which indirectly implies what has been mentioned already. Futher your education and will earn more. There is of course a but, so: but, there are different ways one get to the ALS level. You can either do short courses, totaling up to roughly 13months at a college, or you can go the university and obtain your Bachelor of Technology in Emergency Medical Care, which takes you 4 years full time. Yet, you pass out at the same level, namely ALS, thus the salary is the same. I believe that our industry is to blame for that. As the B-Tech is very new qualification, it is not yet recognised in industry, with regards to salary anyway.

There are many other factors that has an impact as to what you earn, such as years of service, rank, area, service, etc. Everyone always wants to earn more (and employers want to save more), if not, there might be something wrong with you. It is sometimes difficuilt to find common ground that suites both parties. Also remember that there are those who draw a salary and those who earn one...
 
mikeylikesit said:
quit complaining, when we took the job, when we went to school it was never about the money and we knew it. i quit a job making way more money than i do know with less hours and less workload...i don't complain about something i knew about in advance.
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You must be young & single, & no school loans.. :D. Just because one knows about the income does not mean it should stay that way. You would agree upon a cut in pay.. let's say about 25% or 40% due to cost in increase in fuel?

I realized I would take a cut as well (actually almost 3/4 per hourly) & yes, it was my choice. This does not mean I have to settle for it. I agree everyone realizes the pay sucks, but we as a profession main goal after patient care should be increasing pay structure. One cannot attract professional minded employees and long term prospects with sub-standard & having the ability to be on food stamps.

R/r 911
 
Ridryder911 said:
Even if additional training it would still be less than 1000 hours.. less than a beautician. Now with that I do understand the shortage.. I have met EMT's and Paramedics on EMS forums from FDNYC EMS and have heard the disgruntled employees. Especially those between FD and EMS division. The shame that EMS is really a stepchild of the FD, as usual in most FD's. One of the reasons I am against EMS in Fire Services.

Again, until we can "justify" our existence and prove that one cannot be replaced by someone that will work for free or can be easily replaced, we will continue to see this trend.

R/r 911
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Training hours should not be the sole requirement. As someone in the NYC system, FDNY EMT-Bs deserve a raise reguardless of training hours. FDNY BLS units have high call volumes compared with 911 rigs in the sorrounding areas. They need to make more. Volunteer systems are not to blame because no volunteer system could possibly do what FDNY EMS does. No beaticians could put up with the crap that BLS units put up with
 
firecoins said:
Training hours should not be the sole requirement. As someone in the NYC system, FDNY EMT-Bs deserve a raise reguardless of training hours. FDNY BLS units have high call volumes compared with 911 rigs in the sorrounding areas. They need to make more. Volunteer systems are not to blame because no volunteer system could possibly do what FDNY EMS does. No beaticians could put up with the crap that BLS units put up with
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New City is a bunch of BeauticiansB):P^_^:rolleyes::glare:;)
 
Why is anyone so shocked about this? Or a better question is, why does this always (yes always; it happens many times on these type of forums) get people in such a fury when it happens it NYC but not when it happens on a routine basis across the country? Reality check people, 27+K a year is a lot more than what many, many basics make nationwide. Yes, the cost of living is much higher, but the job that is being done is still the same.

You may want to remember that an EMT-basic really is the most bottom rung on the ladder; like it or not they are about the most disposable and easily found person in the medical field. Why pay them more when there are thousands more out there? Hell, why pay them more even if there aren't? They don't get taught enough to justify making a huge salary. If that's offensive to some...that's how it is. You need to get used to it, because it won't be changing anytime soon.

The paramedic salary is pretty crappy, but, it's really on par with what both FDNY firefighters make, as well as NYPD cops. Should it be more? Sure, but it is a civil service job, as well as an unrepresented and unappreciated one. So that's two strikes, and the lack of a mandatory degree is the third.

If you want changes, increase the requirements for education, increase the public awareness, and realize that bottum rung providers will never make that much. Simple fact of life.

http://www.nyc.gov/html/fdny/html/community/ems_employment.shtml#emt_salary
http://www.nyc.gov/html/fdny/html/community/ff_salary_benefits_080106.shtml
http://www.nypd2.org/html/recruit/salary.html
 
triemal04 said:
Why is anyone so shocked about this? [
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No one is shocked about this.

You may want to remember that an EMT-basic really is the most bottom rung on the ladder; like it or not they are about the most disposable and easily found person in the medical field.
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EMT-Bs are the lowest trained but they are the workhorse of the NYC EMS force. This is good thing.

Why pay them more when there are thousands more out there? Hell, why pay them more even if there aren't?
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There is a shortage of EMT-Bs working for FDNY. Supply and Demand. If you can't get the # of EMT-Bs that you need, the salary must rise.

They don't get taught enough to justify making a huge salary. If that's offensive to some...that's how it is. You need to get used to it, because it won't be changing anytime soon.
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You clearly have never worked in NYC. Transport times to major trama centers are never more than 5 minutes. BLS units take calls that would go ALS anywhere else due to short transports. And everything is based of transport to facilities not what you can medically do on scene because of that.

Example: NYC REMAC committee didn't make glucometers a mandatory in ALS trucks because they felt it would delay treatment and transport. Your expected to just give Dextrose 50% and transport. Yet ALS is required to be performed everywhere else in the region.


he paramedic salary is pretty crappy, but, it's really on par with what both FDNY firefighters make, as well as NYPD cops. Should it be more? Sure, but it is a civil service job, as well as an unrepresented and unappreciated one. So that's two strikes, and the lack of a mandatory degree is the third.
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Cops and firefighter are not required to have a degree, just 60 college credits. And they make more. Paramedics often go on to other professions like nursing and PA. You will see a NYC shortage soon.

If you want changes, increase the requirements for education, increase the public awareness, and realize that bottum rung providers will never make that much. Simple fact of life.
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No! Its not that simple. NYC politics are complicated. PD and FD don't have very educational requirments at all. Any moron can be NYPD. In fact low pay rookies and that is what they NYPD got, morons. You can change the education requirments to PhDs for all medics and they will not make a dime more. EMS is the bottom rungers because they are the newest public servants of all NYC public servants and have the weakest pull. The NYPD and FDNY, sanitation, teachers, transit workers all been around for 100 plus years. NYC EMS has been around for 30 some odd years by comparison. Naturally its the weakest. Its own division got eaten up by the FDNY 15 years ago.

To give you an idea of how slow NYC moves, The FDNY are still waiting for a new radio system that they have needed since the 1993 WTC attack. Could have used in 2001. Oh well
 
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firecoins said:
No one is shocked about this.
Really? Then why is it even a topic? The pay there is much better than in other parts of the country, so really, if it's not a big deal, why bother bringing it up?

EMT-Bs are the lowest trained but they are the workhorse of the NYC EMS force. This is good thing.
So it's good that untrained people are providing the majority of the care? Hmmm...

There is a shortage of EMT-Bs working for FDNY. Supply and Demand. If you can't get the # of EMT-Bs that you need, the salary must rise.
Yeah. But why should they be getting that salarly? For being a cab driver for the sick and/or the faking sick?

You clearly have never worked in NYC. Transport times to major trama centers are never more than 5 minutes. BLS units take calls that would go ALS anywhere else due to short transports. And everything is based of transport to facilities not what you can medically do on scene because of that.

Example: NYC REMAC committee didn't make glucometers a mandatory in ALS trucks because they felt it would delay treatment and transport. Your expected to just give Dextrose 50% and transport. Yet ALS is required to be performed everywhere else in the region.
Proves my point again. If all they do is toss someone in the back and aren't able to do anything, why should they get paid more? As an EMt-B, in 5 minutes, what would they do for a critical ALS call? Drive faster?


Cops and firefighter are not required to have a degree, just 60 college credits. And they make more. Paramedics often go on to other professions like nursing and PA. You will see a NYC shortage soon.
Huh. Didn't think New York was one of the states that required any sort of degree to be a paramedic. Or an EMT-B for that matter. My point being, if you look at the tables, the salaries are comparable, and any moron can become an EMT-B. Many do. So why pay them more?

No! Its not that simple. NYC politics are complicated. PD and FD don't have very educational requirments at all. Any moron can be NYPD. In fact low pay rookies and that is what they NYPD got, morons. You can change the education requirments to PhDs for all medics and they will not make a dime more. EMS is the bottom rungers because they are the newest public servants of all NYC public servants and have the weakest pull. The NYPD and FDNY, sanitation, teachers, transit workers all been around for 100 plus years. NYC EMS has been around for 30 some odd years by comparison. Naturally its the weakest. Its own division got eaten up by the FDNY 15 years ago.
Excellent point. And very true. EMS is the :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored: stepchild in part because it is only 30 odd years old. Also in part to the apathy on many providers parts for improving the profession. But again, any moron can be an EMT-B. So why, especially as you pointed out since they do squat in their VERY short transport time, pay them more? Hell, if ALS isn't expected to do much either, why even pay them more?

To give you an idea of how slow NYC moves, The FDNY are still waiting for a new radio system that they have needed since the 1993 WTC attack. Could have used in 2001. Oh well
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I'm not sure what you were trying to get at there. If you really think that an EMT-B in NYC should be paid more, then please explain. Or, if you want to just focus on medics, explain why, if they only have limited abilities to care for their patients, they should be getting more. (don't know if that's the case, but you sure seem to imply that's how it is)
 
It reminds me the understaffing problem LAPD still faces -which remains unknown to most tax payers there.

Does any pre-1993 NYC EMS EMT-B / EMT-Paramedic knows why the EMS got merged with the FDNY? (I hope it wasn't their USAR role in the movie 'Day light' shadowing FDNY) ;)

Have those employees who originally served for the NYC EMS still working (now as FDNY EMS personnel) got to keep their badges or did they have to 'return' them?

As far as if salaries will rise once the shortage increase... I hate to sound pesimistic but here is what happens in the Aquatic Safety field: NYC Parks & Recreation Dept. has been facing lifeguard shortage for more than a decade. They even started to hire international lifeguards in the last years through J1 visa programs. Salaries are not getting higher and the city just leaves some beaches unguarded. (Translated to the EMS field: existing units will simply get even more over loaded while salaries won't necessarily get higher).

About the relation between salaries and increase in the education level... I agree with R/r 911 on the fact that EMS personnel has to improve its training and education level. However, based on what happens in the Aquatic Safety field... The education increases once the salaries and career opportunities has increased. The fact that most of the major lifeguard services ended up becoming divisions of fire departments not only not affected the profession's growth but on the contrary, it has been helping its development since then. Done that while remaining specialized agencies. Nowadays the large lifeguard services in Southern California, Florida and Hawaii are part of 9-1-1 systems, handle ALS, dive team responses, flood rescue, cliff rescue, public education programs, ... Most of these agencies require its guards to become EMT-paramedics, get trained in marine fire fighting, law enforcement, technical rescue, advanced SCUBA diving, ... A few 'Associate Degree in Lifeguarding' programs have already been created which eventually will multiply.

As R/r 911 and others said in many other threads here at EMTLife, promoting the profession and 'lobbying' is a key. The lifeguard services in the above mentioned states invest a lot in promoting the profession through "Junior Lifeguard" programs, public education programs, lifesaving competitions, and reality TV shows. (The latter generating addittional revenue and new sponsor opportunities). As salaries rise, recruiting stops being a problem. Actually, hundreds of outstanding candidates show up at competitive tryouts where only a few vacancies are available. (Unlike the situations of most publis pools, waterparks and waterfronts in the US -always facing worsening recruitment problems, which lead to decrease of education and training levels & requirements, hiring of international guards, etc.). Ranks have been created (Senior LG, Marine Safety Officer, Sgt., Lt., Captain, Section Chief, ...). More and more year-round positions are opened. -Of course politicians love to share credit of succesful public relations campaigns and extra revenue from sponsoring contracts which make them to want to support lifeguards more than before. There are of course some former lifeguards working in high city/county/state positions which helps getting support to the profession. A national unity through local unions, and regional chapters of the main association (which by no means requires putting discussions and debates among agencies and chapters on the side) is another main component.

Since I'm not even an EMT-B, I don't understand why EMS hasn't been able to go in that direction yet. I mean, I understand all the problems that act as obstucles for that to happen, but I consider there are plenty of EMS professionals aware about the 'big picture' that includes a professional public service complemented by volunteer solutions for specific areas and private providers/contractors as relief to governmental budgets. Some of them often expressing their knowledge and expertise here at EMTLife.

One thing is for sure, these problems won't get sovled only with time. If more efforts are put in educating the public ("the customers") about the importance of better education and larger budgets in EMS -and how essential is its role in the community, surely the general situation will improve for the benefit of all parties involved. -(the members of the general public as costumers; the EMS workers getting better conditions and salaries; politicians - being able to get credit from improvements in such an important emergency service appreciated by taxpayers/potential voters).

Hope NYC EMS gets back on its feets soon and the general national situation gets healed for once and for all!

(Not all kids prefer police cars and fire trucks over ambulances) :)


Guri
 
LIFEGUARDAVIDAS said:
The lifeguard services in the above mentioned states invest a lot in promoting the profession through "Junior Lifeguard" programs, public education programs, lifesaving competitions, and reality TV shows.
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That's a good point. Every year, the same story makes the 6 o'clock news about the start of life guard testing complete with action shots of people jumping off piers or racing in a group towards the waterline for the swim test. Same story, essentially the same shots, different year. I wonder what would happen if EMS agencies asked the news media to show up to major active (not class room) training sessions, such as EVOC.
 
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