Dangers of EMS? Any experiences?

[Joey DeMartino]

Yuppers...Times' a changin'. Creating your own patient/victim- wonder how that's gonna' pan out. EMS has come a long way. From "Hook n' Book" to "Slug n' Plug". Nothing like perpetual job security. Quite the symbiotic interface. Hell...if they don't need my help ....I'll just mosey on outta' there. No need to get all tweekered over it.

 

[Tigger]

Our hospital ED is remodeling to change out all the windows to make them bulletproof, reinforce all the walls. All the nurses have to wear Kevlar now. The hospital is hiring 20 new security guards and installing metal detectors at every entrance to the ED. Even then, there have been several assaults on nurses from people being brought in on "emergencies." Within the next year, our station's truck is going to be getting bulletproof glass and we'll be wearing Kevlar, too. And you can be darn sure I'll be carrying. All the people coming up from Detroit and bringing their crap with them. -_-

RNs wearing vests? I'm sure that went over well :/.

Also an ambulance with bullet resistance glass and armed providers? No thanks.

Incidentally I was recently informed that I work in the 5th most armed county per capital in the nation. Who woulda thought?

 

[Ewok Jerky]

And you can be darn sure I'll be carrying.

Hope you don't end up getting shot with your own gun.

 

[OnceAnEMT]

Our hospital ED is remodeling to change out all the windows to make them bulletproof, reinforce all the walls. All the nurses have to wear Kevlar now. The hospital is hiring 20 new security guards and installing metal detectors at every entrance to the ED. Even then, there have been several assaults on nurses from people being brought in on "emergencies." Within the next year, our station's truck is going to be getting bulletproof glass and we'll be wearing Kevlar, too. And you can be darn sure I'll be carrying. All the people coming up from Detroit and bringing their crap with them. -_-

You forgot to put on the [sarcasm] tags, right? Because that's a joke. Especially a healthcare provider carrying a firearm, let alone a weapon at all. Let us know how the nurses like their kevlar after a 12 hour shift. You realize that even in Afghanistan now and back when things were hotter that emergency services personnel only wore their gear when they HAD to, right?

Not be a victim blamer, and I understand that some circumstances just can't be avoided, but I know from personal experience that some in-hospital assaults can be avoided by a little bit of keen observation and mostly situational awareness. I have not and never will put myself in the position where I am with an aggressive patient on my own or with someone who I know can't help me subdue the patient if he/she threw down. I've heard of nurses getting kicked by patients with their arms restrained and go off complaining. But my question is, why are you so close to the aggressive patient's loose legs? Same goes for getting slapped or otherwise struck. In the ED I am at any patient who acts in the slightest bit as aggressive is warned upon touching a provider or staff member, let alone assaulting. That's how we help prevent assaults. Draw the line early, make authority known, and keep your team safe. The security at the hospital I'm at isn't a joke, but it certainly isn't the best. We used to have a state trooper in the ED 24/7, but that recently switched to just a staff security guard. Its on us as providers to deescalate a patient.

It's a shame to hear about some providers just "taking it". Hopefully you are at least learning from these violent scenarios and figuring out better ways to avoid an assault or prevent a violent situation all together. For the past few months now hospital based healthcare providers are protected by federal law against patients who decide to strike them, but only in the event that the provider has taken a recognized crisis prevention CE course. I used to oppose this catch, thinking it was a waste of time, but now I somewhat support the notion, as some people still turn their backs on loose aggressive patients or put themselves in harms way by leaning over aggressive patients or even aggravating them.

 

[WiserOne]

In my experiences, and I don't mean to begrudge anyone here, EMS providers are at times willful participants is their own assault.

I've seen some people walk into a patients house and be very deserving of a smack or two for their behavior. Other times I've seen people engage in very logical arguments with people wearing nothing but socks in the middle of winter.

Now I know my experiences aren't anything more than that, but if someone gives me the remotest of inklings that they may want to get physical I am at least two times arms length away. I also follow the law of house rules. If it's your house, you call for EMS and then tell me to gtfo, I'm outta there. Call for assistance or whatever necessary from outside but engaging in anything physical means you failed at your number one duty of ensuring you're own safety.

 

[irishboxer384]

Our hospital ED is remodeling to change out all the windows to make them bulletproof, reinforce all the walls. All the nurses have to wear Kevlar now. The hospital is hiring 20 new security guards and installing metal detectors at every entrance to the ED. Even then, there have been several assaults on nurses from people being brought in on "emergencies." Within the next year, our station's truck is going to be getting bulletproof glass and we'll be wearing Kevlar, too. And you can be darn sure I'll be carrying. All the people coming up from Detroit and bringing their crap with them. -_-

Seems like a typical and thoughtless knee-jerk reaction if true...on a side note there is no such thing as bulletproof glass- it isn't 'proof' as it can be penetrated. Added to the fact I hope your department is going to be giving the advanced driving training to deal with the additional weight of the vehicles from reinforcing the windshield etc aswell as swapping out the correct vehicle parts for that safety...which is more likely to kill you in a vehicular impact than say...someone shooting at you

 

[DesertMedic66]

Seems like a typical and thoughtless knee-jerk reaction if true...on a side note there is no such thing as bulletproof glass- it isn't 'proof' as it can be penetrated. Added to the fact I hope your department is going to be giving the advanced driving training to deal with the additional weight of the vehicles from reinforcing the windshield etc aswell as swapping out the correct vehicle parts for that safety...which is more likely to kill you in a vehicular impact than say...someone shooting at you

Kind of pointless to install bullet resistant windows in an ambulance. The sheet metal on ambulances is so thin a bullet will easily pass through it (aside from maybe a .22).

 

[Jkass9966]

On my 3rd call ever I had a woman freak out and punch me square in the ....nether regions.

 

[redundantbassist]

Time to get a vest and concealed carry card.

I suggest you look into dkx armor. Their level iiia hard plates are super lightweight and comfortable with the right pate carrier, and also protects you from blunt force trauma and stabbings. They are a little pricey but if you feel that the risk you are put in justifies the cost, than investing in armor is a reasonable consideration.

 

[Joey DeMartino]

Not true on the dkx or any other "wonder" armor. A .308 WILL punch through- we did it on one of the panels my buddy yanked from an "uncomfortable" zone. True on blunt force trauma but there is always going to be a trade between kinetic energy transfer, impenetrable materials (work energy needs to go somewhere) and a tight fightin' sexy appearance that doesn't lead one to contemplate head, neck, and nut shots at close range. Just sayin'. Grimes and Boxer got it right-Keep your testes where a steel toe can't find a home and let your will to procreate another time be your ever loving guide. LEO lives for this type of confrontation so just wait 'till he/she arranges a meeting with you and Mr. Perp under more favorable conditions.

 

[redundantbassist]

Not true on the dkx or any other "wonder" armor. A .308 WILL punch through- we did it on one of the panels my buddy yanked from an "uncomfortable" zone. True on blunt force trauma but there is always going to be a trade between kinetic energy transfer, impenetrable materials (work energy needs to go somewhere) and a tight fightin' sexy appearance that doesn't lead one to contemplate head, neck, and nut shots at close range. Just sayin'. Grimes and Boxer got it right-Keep your testes where a steel toe can't find a home and let your will to procreate another time be your ever loving guide. LEO lives for this type of confrontation so just wait 'till he/she arranges a meeting with you and Mr. Perp under more favorable conditions.

I am aware of that. I was recommending the level iiia pistol plates, which are much lighter than any other armor. I have yet to find a level iii or level iv plate that is light and concealable, and suitable for ems.

 

[redundantbassist]

You forgot to put on the [sarcasm] tags, right? Because that's a joke. Especially a healthcare provider carrying a firearm, let alone a weapon at all. Let us know how the nurses like their kevlar after a 12 hour shift. You realize that even in Afghanistan now and back when things were hotter that emergency services personnel only wore their gear when they HAD to, right?

Not be a victim blamer, and I understand that some circumstances just can't be avoided, but I know from personal experience that some in-hospital assaults can be avoided by a little bit of keen observation and mostly situational awareness. I have not and never will put myself in the position where I am with an aggressive patient on my own or with someone who I know can't help me subdue the patient if he/she threw down. I've heard of nurses getting kicked by patients with their arms restrained and go off complaining. But my question is, why are you so close to the aggressive patient's loose legs? Same goes for getting slapped or otherwise struck. In the ED I am at any patient who acts in the slightest bit as aggressive is warned upon touching a provider or staff member, let alone assaulting. That's how we help prevent assaults. Draw the line early, make authority known, and keep your team safe. The security at the hospital I'm at isn't a joke, but it certainly isn't the best. We used to have a state trooper in the ED 24/7, but that recently switched to just a staff security guard. Its on us as providers to deescalate a patient.

It's a shame to hear about some providers just "taking it". Hopefully you are at least learning from these violent scenarios and figuring out better ways to avoid an assault or prevent a violent situation all together. For the past few months now hospital based healthcare providers are protected by federal law against patients who decide to strike them, but only in the event that the provider has taken a recognized crisis prevention CE course. I used to oppose this catch, thinking it was a waste of time, but now I somewhat support the notion, as some people still turn their backs on loose aggressive patients or put themselves in harms way by leaning over aggressive patients or even aggravating them.

I'm just going to leave this here.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/201...he-found-himself-in-life-and-death-situation/

 

[Jon]

Aside from being hit, slapped, and verbally assaulted too many times to count. I have had an ambulance catch fire on the way back from a transfer in '95, had my partner drive off the road almost flipping the unit in '01, and in '07 became a lawndart when my aircraft experienced an LTE (loss of tzilrotor effectiveness) drilling me i to the ground.

Soon as I saw you replied I knew you'd have won the "it happened to me" discussion. Falling out of the sky and living to tell about it is a hell of a risk in EMS. Even more so is the ~3-4 fatal HEMS crashes every year.

Our hospital ED is remodeling to change out all the windows to make them bulletproof, reinforce all the walls. All the nurses have to wear Kevlar now. The hospital is hiring 20 new security guards and installing metal detectors at every entrance to the ED. Even then, there have been several assaults on nurses from people being brought in on "emergencies." Within the next year, our station's truck is going to be getting bulletproof glass and we'll be wearing Kevlar, too. And you can be darn sure I'll be carrying. All the people coming up from Detroit and bringing their crap with them. -_-

Alright. I'm wondering. Where is this that has nursing staff wearing vests?

 

[RocketMedic]

I'd like to point out that the best way to avoid a fight is to be polite and professional.

 

[luke_31]

I'd like to point out that the best way to avoid a fight is to be polite and professional.

Doesn't always work being polite and professional, some patients will cause trouble no matter what. Best thing to do is keep the exit clear and be ready to leave if the situation worsens

 

[Joey DeMartino]

After reading the story redundantbassist posted, I am even more concerned with the "self protection through firepower" suggestions being offered. And if the offending individual had gained possession of the firearm? This is a very real scenario that may-and has- led to the arming of an individual who is already intent on causing great bodily harm on persons other than himself / herself.

It would seem to me that there were a number of "missed" opportunities that might have circumvented this incident prior to the administration of lethal force. Waiting until a confrontation is imminent is taking scene control from your hands and relying on many other new factors that you have NO control over. For example: it is legal to blow through intersections running code ( an extremely foolish maneuver under ALL circumstances) in my state. If you take that option ("due regard") and give control over to the individual hidden behind the bus and impatient that traffic has stopped for an unknown reason, control now resides in the hands of a driver who legally has the right to the intersection. Simply put- learn to diffuse, prevent, and plan for these situations and you will remain in control.

EMS/Fire demands a conscious and deliberate effort to familiarize ourselves with "What Ifs'' prior to engagement. Be smart and don't rely on an offensive attitude being used as a moral, legal, ethical and "best practice" reaction for poor pre-incident defense.

 

[Joey DeMartino]

On a further note. An undercover officer was just shot ( in one of our larger cities) by another officer while on duty. Sadly he is in a struggle for his life. He was not wearing a vest (according to the latest news accounts). These are highly trained officers- probably some of the best.

This terrible incident only bears light to the dangers of much less trained and equipped EMS/Fire employees carrying firearms while on duty, minding for the care of their patient and forgetting the sidearm either on their person or in an unsecured portion of the unit.

It is not my intention to discourage the use of body armor. My personal body armor is a fire shelter (also known as a shake and bake). It is a last ditch effort that offers extremely limited protection. Pulling a shelter- like depending on a vest- is a dangerous and marginally survivable venture. We train constantly on trigger points and pre-trigger points. This has proven extremely effective over my almost 40 years in Fire /EMS. Wear the vest but act as if you have a bull's-eye on your chest and I will see you in the next 40...

 

[TransportJockey]

On a further note. An undercover officer was just shot ( in one of our larger cities) by another officer while on duty. Sadly he is in a struggle for his life. He was not wearing a vest (according to the latest news accounts). These are highly trained officers- probably some of the best.

This terrible incident only bears light to the dangers of much less trained and equipped EMS/Fire employees carrying firearms while on duty, minding for the care of their patient and forgetting the sidearm either on their person or in an unsecured portion of the unit.

It is not my intention to discourage the use of body armor. My personal body armor is a fire shelter (also known as a shake and bake). It is a last ditch effort that offers extremely limited protection. Pulling a shelter- like depending on a vest- is a dangerous and marginally survivable venture. We train constantly on trigger points and pre-trigger points. This has proven extremely effective over my almost 40 years in Fire /EMS. Wear the vest but act as if you have a bull's-eye on your chest and I will see you in the next 40...

The undercover narcotic detective and one other plain clothes detective actually. The second was just minor.injuries. I know the uniform who was the shooter and he's pretty tore up about it. It goes to show that no matter what precautions you take, **** can still happen
And no, the detectives were not.wearing vests. Hard to conceal those in an undercover op

 

[johnrsemt]

I have been attacked because I didn't bring a doctor with me to the scene of a 7 year old girl hit by a car going about 3 MPH; dad attacked us, dad was driving the car; (girl didn't even fall off or over on her bike). I was attacked as I got out of the ambulance and dad asked where doc was, I politely said at the hospital.
I have been attacked by another father for not getting the son out of the house fast enough (dad stabbed son with carving fork when son reached for the 2nd turkey leg on thanksgiving). Dad, mom and uncle ended up going to jail (mom and uncle attacked police that were arresting dad) son signed refusal and got the leg anyway.

We had a ED get shot up about 10 years ago by a lady brought in by ambulance, "It took too long to get checked out".

This was all in a nice city, without alot of violence at the time.

 

[Joey DeMartino]

You substantiate the point Mr. Zecco. (Although I do realize the stark difference between Officers, Agents and Detectives-I prefer to be non-specific in information sharing until the facts are out-but thank you for the clarification never the less) The issue here is not so much the lack of the vest, obviously "special ops" (another loose nomenclature) in LEAs' require the agents' anonymity and the avoidance of detection -therefore personal protection is often necessary to shed in order to achieve this end. These officers are highly trained in confrontation mitigation- I would venture to say most EMS people do not possess this degree of training. But it happened.

I lost a close friend when his vest didn't so much fail it's intended design- as the striking rounds succeeded in accomplishing theirs'. I've lost good brothers and sisters in and around their fire shelters and others when snags fell without warning. My concern is about armed medical personnel and a dependency on protective attire that often leads to complacency. Unexpected and unavoidable incidents are going to happen- but why encourage them and fall for the "bullet proof" mentality. Vests are not bulletproof-they do not take the place of careful entry and constant vigilance. Sometimes that's not even enough.
Wearing a vest is a good idea but never forget to look out for your partner, listen to that inner voice, don't depend on last chance safety equipment, never roll on a "routine" call- and don't take the last turkey leg......