How are vollys viewed by paid EMT's?

[TransportJockey]

I've never volunteered... and swore I never would (until the rural county next door told me I could play as a medic and they'd pay for my AAS and BS in EMS along w/ TEMS and whatever other classes I want for 24 hrs/month minimum.), but generally I hold judgement until I see the dept work. Around here in NM, for hte most part, I'm not too thrilled w/ what I've seen. I work for a private 911 service that does transport in a rural area. Most of the time we are the only providers on scene, as we can't get any vollies to get out of bed for anything other than a structure going up. Generally even on codes, I'll be the lone unit on scene. Which sucks.
Volunteers in certain areas seems to be phasing out... can't say I'm to sad by that.

 

[RocketMedic]

Sierra County's volunteers are pretty motivated, TJ. I like them quite a lot.

 

[TransportJockey]

Sierra County's volunteers are pretty motivated, TJ. I like them quite a lot.

That they are. I know Kevin (another classmate, and a friend of Keith and Javi) tells me they actually do a good job. I was mainly referring to large parts of ValCo.

 

[RocketMedic]

There's population there?

 

[Chief Complaint]

Most of them are looked down upon by the career staff here. Not all, but i would say that the majority of them are.

They dont have the same training as us, and arent held to the same fitness standards. That leads to a lot of tension between the two sides.

 

[rescue1]

I think any system where the volunteers and career men are held to different standards will breed tension. If the professional staff have to clean the station, stock the rigs, and attend mandatory training while the volunteers can lay about the station watching HBO, there will be grumbling in the ranks.
This is also true if the paid men are trained to a much higher level and have to "babysit" volunteers on calls.
Also note this could go both ways, paid guys can be lazy too. But it tends to be the way I described, for the simple reason that when you pay someone, you have far more leeway on telling him what to do with his time.

 

[crashh]

how is the training different?


We don't have any paid in our dept. we are all volunteer

 

[rescue1]

Continuing education, drills, attending seminars on various medical issues, that kind of thing. You can't just take EMT-B and then decide you don't ever need to know anything else about medicine.

Or if you do fire and EMS, have paid men with much more certifications. Also, in many of the Maryland academies I've seen, the paid firefighter's courses will simply be longer. In (volunteer) firefighter 1, we spent like...2 days on roof ladders. In the paid academy held there they spent over a week on roof ladders. That kind of thing.

 

[HawkMedic]

Volunteering is exactly what it entails; You will get a broad spectrum of providers from the lazy to the very best. I know several individuals that you would look at and say they are the very best providers and they deserve the compliment, however the flip side is you also get the providers that don't take it seriously. Regardless of their job describtion (paid/volunteer) its the same, and it needs to be taken seriously with dedication to training, and riding calls frequently. I think the question should be about how you feel about lazy people who don't want to better themselves

 

[crashh]

Continuing education, drills, attending seminars on various medical issues, that kind of thing. You can't just take EMT-B and then decide you don't ever need to know anything else about medicine.

Or if you do fire and EMS, have paid men with much more certifications. Also, in many of the Maryland academies I've seen, the paid firefighter's courses will simply be longer. In (volunteer) firefighter 1, we spent like...2 days on roof ladders. In the paid academy held there they spent over a week on roof ladders. That kind of thing.

we drill every week....we are encouraged and it is paid for us to go to seminars, talks, conventions etc. Continuing education is encouraged, and in some cases, paid for by the dept. I am looking into getting my paramedic training paid for at this time. We just went to high band finally!

Most of our firefighters, myself included have many certifications, and are also FF2 qualified. Our dept pays for us to go to different training for certification programs, including the state Fire Academy in Montour Falls.


I guess I'm just saying that not all volly units are like the ones you are used to dealing with. I'm not saying we know everything (even paid personnel can't say that..you never know everything), but we work hard at making sure we are up to date on training and equipment etc.

 

[rescue1]

I'm not disagreeing with you about volunteers. My current department is primarily volunteer and they are (for the most part) very squared away with training and professionalism.
Like I said earlier, a volunteer station is as good or bad as the people in it and the framework system surrounding it. The main difference between a volunteer and a paid staff is that a volunteer organization, and therefore the people in it, must be self motivated and not settle for the minimum, as unfortunately many do.
A paid organization also must not settle, but when a company or municipality begins to invest money in things they have higher expectations and demands, and more leverage to make it happen.

 

[TransportJockey]

There's population there?

LOL Not so much. But I'm gona be vollying in Torrance, where there's even less population lol

 

[Chief Complaint]

how is the training different?


We don't have any paid in our dept. we are all volunteer

Our paid staff go through a grueling 6 month academy which works out to a little more than 50 hours/week of solid training. Im not knocking the volunteers for not going through the academy because its not an option for them, but the bottom line is that it is an entirely different level of training for the career staff.

 

[crashh]

sounds crazy! no worries, i'm not offended at all by any of these posts fyi...just fairly new to this & trying to get some info

i like your name Chief Complaint :lol:

 

[Level1pedstech]

Our paid staff go through a grueling 6 month academy which works out to a little more than 50 hours/week of solid training. Im not knocking the volunteers for not going through the academy because its not an option for them, but the bottom line is that it is an entirely different level of training for the career staff.

Why not hold the volunteers up to the same standards of training and testing. Earlier in the thread I used my former department as an example of how combination departments can be successful.

We also moved staff up from within which saved the city money and time when full time paid spots opened up. The path started at shift volunteer then you would test into the part time pool,all full time positions were filled from the part time pool. Another benefit was that the new full timers had alredy been on the floor for at least a couple of years so the move over to full time did not require an academy or supervised probie time.

 

[Veneficus]

Just asking

Why not hold the volunteers up to the same standards of training and testing. Earlier in the thread I used my former department as an example of how combination departments can be successful.

We also moved staff up from within which saved the city money and time when full time paid spots opened up. The path started at shift volunteer then you would test into the part time pool,all full time positions were filled from the part time pool. Another benefit was that the new full timers had alredy been on the floor for at least a couple of years so the move over to full time did not require an academy or supervised probie time.

So how do you stop it from being a good old boy club or an organization that is not receptive to innovation?

 

[Level1pedstech]

I've never volunteered... and swore I never would (until the rural county next door told me I could play as a medic and they'd pay for my AAS and BS in EMS along w/ TEMS and whatever other classes I want for 24 hrs/month minimum.), but generally I hold judgement until I see the dept work. Around here in NM, for hte most part, I'm not too thrilled w/ what I've seen. I work for a private 911 service that does transport in a rural area. Most of the time we are the only providers on scene, as we can't get any vollies to get out of bed for anything other than a structure going up. Generally even on codes, I'll be the lone unit on scene. Which sucks.
Volunteers in certain areas seems to be phasing out... can't say I'm to sad by that.

Seems to me you are being compensated,with money from the county for your education. Not sure how you figure your a volunteer at least not the kind of volunteer being discussed in this thread.

As far as coming out and "playing" as a medic,most of us know what you mean. To the new people however you are making the case for those that are convinced volunteers will never be equal to their paid counterparts. Guess your getting the best of both worlds.

 

[Level1pedstech]

So how do you stop it from being a good old boy club or an organization that is not receptive to innovation?

Everybody from the mayor on down the line needs to be involved and on board to keep the department focused. In our case most major issues had to be brought before the board of commissioners for approval which removed the "good old boy factor" at least in comparison to my other department.

As far as being receptive to innovation you know as well as me that you have to have the right command staff. From the chief to his asisstant to the battalion chiefs and on down to the captains on the floor there has to be a commitment to continue the forward movement of the department. Having the IAFF on board was a big help for us as well as our involvement with the larger nearby agencies.

The real way to look at it if you wanted to take an agency in this direction is to look at what it offers the tax payers. Forget the paid/volunteer arguement and who is better fit to serve and focus on the fact that with this model your getting service and coverage for roughly half the cost of the all paid agency.

This is not a template for every agency but if given the right conditions I think its one that could be implemented in areas where they have outgrown the all volunteer agency but are not fiscally sound enough for an all paid agency.

Of course the commitment of the volunteers has to be above the level that most are now accustomed to. Knowing that full time paid spots are filled from within is a huge motivating factor and should serve as incentive for the volunteer staff to work even harder than the full timers. This incentive also makes the volunteer recruitment process more competitive and draws in people from outside the community.

 

[rescue1]

The above model is used fairly effectively by EMS squads in the Philly suburbs. I'm not a member of any, so I really can't talk about them with any expertise, but it's my understanding that everyone is held to identical standards, paid and volunteer, both for scheduling and training. Volunteers also have hiring preference. I hear its pretty effective.

I think this system is great, but the issue is that it requires you have be a combination system to start. For an all or almost all volunteer system (which is where a lot of the complaints arise about volunteers) this system obviously won't work, since you have no (or almost no) paid positions for the volunteers to "promote into".
The only other issue is if you can't keep volunteer recruitment high. So while some areas (very populated ones) will have no trouble with a constant stream of people volunteering for a few years to get a paid position, a more rural department may end up hiring all the volunteers and transform into a paid department.

 

[Veneficus]

The above model is used fairly effectively by EMS squads in the Philly suburbs. I'm not a member of any, so I really can't talk about them with any expertise, but it's my understanding that everyone is held to identical standards, paid and volunteer, both for scheduling and training. Volunteers also have hiring preference. I hear its pretty effective.

I think this system is great, but the issue is that it requires you have be a combination system to start. For an all or almost all volunteer system (which is where a lot of the complaints arise about volunteers) this system obviously won't work, since you have no (or almost no) paid positions for the volunteers to "promote into".
The only other issue is if you can't keep volunteer recruitment high. So while some areas (very populated ones) will have no trouble with a constant stream of people volunteering for a few years to get a paid position, a more rural department may end up hiring all the volunteers and transform into a paid department.

Do you think this system will advance pay, opportunity, or profesional status of EMS in the area?