EMS and Unions

[46Young]

Everybody sing along !.. You can trust the union label... oh, sorry; got carried away by all the union promotion.

Unions have their place. If that is what it takes, so be it. Definitely needed in some areas as a last resort. Personally I only belonged to the FOP while as a tactical medic and seen nothing but dues being sucked out of my pay check. Went back to the private sector that had retirement and insurance and pay without me paying someone to get it for me.

I do admit, I do love the nurses that unionize, especially when they strike. It's the easiest $ 75-100/hr gig. Hospitals realize they will have to have them back and the union will settle for less than what is asked for. Meanwhile it will pay for me some toys.

Unions were very strong in my area but lately corporations have found it is as easy to hire out or locating the company elsewhere in another country. Yeah, thanks. Paying someone $25/hr for changing a lightbulb tends reduce opportunities. Again, someone will have to pay for it (the consumer).

No, I believe EMS should be getting very high salaries. That is when and if they become a professional and demonstrated they have earned it. Just because someone shows up for work does not automatically make them a great employee or a professional. Again, what requirements and special skills or education level have you brought into the agency? Other than attending an academy or 16 week class, does that person deserve to making above entry level salary? Does those that never promote upward in educational and within the profession deserve to gain raises as well, just because they did their job?

Does those that choose not to participate and not promote themselves get the same raise?

So let's shift the tax burden on more as more and more become unemployed or how about looking at what Austin EMS did? Hmmm.... refused to take a full increase in pay to help out their citizens. Which do you think has the best interest in heart of the community?

R/r 911

Everybody sing along! It's not fair, la la la, those union guys get so much more than us, why do they deserve it instead of us, la la la, why won't they give back half of their salary for the pulblic good la la la.

Of course the union settled for less than it asked for - that's why it's called "bargaining". The union required management to iron out a new contract. It would find it extremely hard to believe that the post strike contract provides less than the pre strike contract. That's why unions strike.

Yes, unions have ruined corporations, and have forced than to outsource. However, we're talking about emergency services. With collective bargaining, the employer cannot permenantly replace the local with non union labor.

It doesn't matter what special education/skills or lack thereof that I bring to my employer, as long as I meet their minimum hiring criteria. We're entitled to whatever the hiring salary is, and all benefits and incentives that come with. It's provided in writing with our job offer. Much thanks to my union for providing us with all that we enjoy currently. As we progress upward through technician, Lt, Capt I, Capt II, BC, DC, education in the form of college degrees hold progressively more weight. Thanks again to the union for making the promotional process fair, objective, unbiased, and job related. No good ole boy, drinking buddy, or whatever promotional system here!

For your information, we have indefinitely frozen step increases as well as COLA's here. Giving money back, however, isn't acceptable. You need to draw the line somewhere. If you start giving back, it sets precedent for future negotiations.

 

[46Young]

Actually, the hospitals may not be so quick to take them back. In fact last year in CA when one group of RNs struck, the hospitals locked out the nurses for another 3 days after the union declared the strike was over. Now, that union has not even given a thought to striking this year. The nurses at the non union hospitals are chuckling each time a union hospital strikes since they make money from the OT and have the same competitive wages without the union dues and the mandatory stipulations placed on union members by their own union which is not always in the favor of education or hard work for advancement. The union hospitals also have not had any problem getting staff from agencies and neighboring hospitals. Now, with the influx of older nurses returning to the work force and younger RNs graduating with BSNs, there are willing candidates to replace the striking staff. Thus, the unions are picking their battles much more carefully.

At least with nursing, their unions are specialized for nurses and supportive of education overall. It is not like some EMS unions where they are a spin off of a Plumbers and Piperfitters union where there is no interest in EMS as a profession. They are just drawing up a generic contract and changing the title for what ever group of employees they are resprenting.

In CA, even the BART (Bay Area Rapid Transit) unions averted a strike although they threatened. However, it was the public they were threatening and creating more problems for than the BART management. In just a couple of hours when one union anounced they wanted a strike over 2000 people wrote the local news website in rage at the unions. The general public now view unions and its members as selfish. The unions are no longer popular after incidents as in the Vallejo backruptcy and the little city of Alameda's financial problems. Yet, the FD union there stay in the public eye with their petitions and carrying signs in front of shopping areas for better benefits, more money and more employees even after they are noted to be the best staffed department in CA with a very low call volume.

Last time I checked, the employer can't get rid of the union shop and replace it with non union labor permanently. Sometimes striking is necessary. It's the last resort for leverage against the employer. It forces management to negotiate. Everyone knows that.

Last I checked, the FD was not allowed to actually strike due to public danger, anyway.

 

[46Young]

I believe EMS should require an associate's degree for paramedic. I think that it makes the field look more professional which is what EMS needs. Everyone always talks about well you went to school for so an so hours and you need more expertise to make money.

We are currently discussing professionalism in our class and the more fellow EMT's that can be professional and education the better off the field will be I think. I think more stringent requirements and the government understand the importance of EMS would go a long way to make the public more informed as well as helping our salaries.

As our instructor said there are five types of paramedics. Below is the percentage in which he thinks paramedics exist.

A 5% of medics meet this, excellent medics. These medics know what is going on, they study new disease's or sicknesses they don't know much about. They are educated. They don't just put patients on a IV, pulse ox or cardiac monitor because they don't know what else to do.

B 15% good medic These medics are excellent medics, they just need more education. College coursework such as physiology, human growth and development could help these medics move up to A.

C 20% these are average medics, they probably won't kill anybody but they won't do much good either. They just do what is needed to get by and they refuse to further their education, read extra journals, etc.

D needs license taken away
F needs license taken away

Anyhow I think more professionalism will lead to better pay.

Education alone isn't likely to passively increase salary benefits. You need strong political organization and action, preferably through a union that can force management to negotiate a contract. "Management, our paramedics now hold four year degrees. It's this local's position that this needs to be recognized and compansated accordingly. If you fail to do so, we won't be able to reach an agreement".

 

[medic417]

That was written by you, my friend. If you had collective bargaining, you would be in a better position to correct that situation. But instead, all you can do is rant about it on an internet forum. Powerless to change your reality.

Nope they would just tell the union same thing. Please quit hijacking threads it is agianst the rules. If I am forced to stop hijacking with my opinions you need to as well.

 

[reaper]

Maybe your employer is one in a million or something. We went over what can happen if an employee is "at will" at the South Carolina thread. I guess that would be live a good life without unon interference?
I've also written that having a union in place in a certain region will require non union employers to sweeten the pot to lure the best talent. The indirect effect. You've just validated that for me.

Maybe FF's in the Carolina's need to work several jobs to make ends meet. not hard to understand when they're getting 8 bucks an hour. Maybe collective bargaining can help with that

I work several jobs because I want to pay off my car, buy a house, pay it off quick, take vacations, etc. To improve my quality of life. FF's in Northern Va and MD are getting around 50k give or take to start. FDNY FF's get 68k or so after 5 years. Phoenix FF's get mid 40's to start, CA FF's get way more. In each case, they're doing at least as well if not better than many college grads, without the requisite time investment. I don't see that in the Southeast. I don't see unions there, either.

Let's see. FDNY is making 68k after 5 years and have a cost of living that is 2-3 times higher. I am making 40-50k after one year and my cost of living is low. Yeah, I can see were the Southeast is way behind! Dang, I should run out and drag the unions in here to save me!

 

[46Young]

Let's see. FDNY is making 68k after 5 years and have a cost of living that is 2-3 times higher. I am making 40-50k after one year and my cost of living is low. Yeah, I can see were the Southeast is way behind! Dang, I should run out and drag the unions in here to save me!

These numbers are for basic FF's only. The starting salary for firemedics is way higher. I was pulling in 65k base after the academy. NY money. My current cost of living is certainly not 40-50% higher here than it was in SC (proportional comparison of base salaries). The FDNY guys work less hours than you do, and use shift swaps to be off for extended periods. It's like they're never there, almost. They get the benefits from working there (20 and out pension as well, average highest 3 years +OT). Retire in your 40's. They can work construction, EMS, tend bar, bounce, anything they want for extra money, as they have plenty of time on their hands.

I know that Charleston is the wealthiest county in SC. They start medic crew members at around 38k. After promotion to crew chief, they get 45k/yr. you're saying that you're making 40-50k after one year. That flexible number implies a certain amount of OT. What is your base?

You've also stated previously that you've worked for 16 different EMS agencies throughout your career. Assuming you always work two jobs at all times, that's at least changing FT jobs eight times or more. I can understand wanting to experience EMS in different regions, as I've done that myself. But 16 jobs, it sounds shady to me.

Okay, so you're making 50 grand after OT in an area of SC other than Charleston. We've been over how "at will" agencies are typically run in SC, and we know that high pay isn't the only factor to consider.

So, where's this supposed utopian EMS agency that's supposedly the best thing since sliced bread? Let us know so that others can apply there and be as satisfied as you. Curious that I spent six months in SC, and have spoken to many different individuals regarding other quality EMS agencies in the state (after experiencing CCEMS I began exploring other options) and have never heard of any EMS mecca in the upcountry. Tell us where you work, or I'm calling shenanigans on your previous claims.

 

[46Young]

Capital City Ambulance perhaps? They don't even post much about organization other than their coverage area, and there's no mention of salary on the site. If an employer is paying well, it behooves them to post their entrance salary, not hide it.

 

[46Young]

Myrtle Beach, Horry county and Georgetown are fire based. Greenville County states on their site that they have 15 FT 24/7 ambulances and four 12/7 ambulances. That's 90 people for the 24/7 (56 hours/wk), and maybe another 40 or so for the 12/7. Add relief personnel and admin, and it still doesn't add up to 300. They start medics at 15.16/hr. They give 5% for an associate's, and 10% for a bachelor's. That's 16 and change per hour tops. It's unclear if that stated salary is for the 12's, or the 24's. If for the 24's, it would be expected to drop. It's also unclear if the 24's add up to 56 hours weekly, or maybe they just do two 24/s/wk. If they're paying 15+/hr based on 56 hours/wk, then I could see this place matching up with your claims to generous salary for the area. For a 40-44 hour workweek, not so much.

 

[Level1pedstech]

The union no union question is as old as the volunteer/paid debate. I currently belong to two unions and the difference in representation is night and day.

In the hospital I am represented by the SEIU, a complete joke and except for getting us scrubs when the hospital did away with issuing them, their presence is unseen except when they take my dues. Since I only work 12-24 hours a week I really feel it when the dues come out of my check. I know many people are represnted by SEIU and are very happy with their representation but in our case they dont help much. The hospital is very well known as above average paying and a very good place to work. As someone stated before employers can by their own choice provide a decent wage and a pleasant environment to work in.

In my truck driving job I am represented by the teamsters and over the last 15 years I can say I have no problems with their representation. The work environment would be more hostile and brutal without the contract both sides follow and I can truly say if there was ever a place for union representation this is it. I have never had to have the unions help with discipline issues or to help me keep my job so we dont need to hear that old excuse. I do like the fact that we have always had a fair contract and as of the last few years labor and management have been more than willing to work together. If you add up all the pay and benefits my compensation package is close to 125K per year,not bad for sitting behind the wheel listening to my satellite radio and watching the stores unload my trailer. I know I would be hard pressed to find many jobs that offer that type of compensation without some advanced education. Could I function without the union,you bet I could and I dont think my compensation package would suffer much. There are many benefits to union representation pay being number three on my list.

I read someone bragging about crossing a picket line earlier in this thread and all I can say is I would never SCAB and you will not be forgotten by those that you back stabbed and believe me your actions did not go unnoticed. In my union working as a scab would prevent you from ever holding a card in the future, not that you care but I just thought I would throw that in. Hurting other workers whether you agree with their fight or not is just plain wrong. This will not mean much to the non union folks but I think most of the union people would have to agree. Enriching yourself at the cost of others and then bragging about it on an open forum tells us alot about you. Teamsters have a saying, once a SCAB always a SCAB.

 

[Level1pedstech]

As well, the $200 dollars saved each month by not paying unions dues adds up.

Who pays 200.00 a month in dues? I pay 50.00 as a teamster and 40 for SEIU. I now people in many different unions (SAG,AFTRA,IAOE,FCW) and no one pays near that per month.People like to throw around high dues numbers as anti union propaganda not that you are but I would like to know your source on that number.

 

[triemal04]

Lots. Unions are not the only way to get quality pay and benefits. Plus many places have learned that they can get and keep quality people by giving decent pay and benefits thus saving money in the long run.

http://allnurses.com/general-nursing-discussion/what-pension-medical-25103.html
Granted the thread is from 2002, but I'm to lazy to do more searching. The general consensus from there seems to be that there are very few, if any pensions, some money-match setups with 401K's/403's and no healthcare after retirement.

From your examples, why is it that FF's all work 2-3 jobs, just to get by. If the union is doing so good for them, they should not need the other jobs. I have never seen a union service, fire or EMS, that had it any better then the systems I have worked. Except for the union dues they lose every month!

That's going to be specific to each situation; throughout my state the career fire departments (very nearly all union) are compensated enough without overtime to live comfortably. Not to say that people don't have second jobs (and for some it may be necessary due to family/lifestyle) but it's not needed to get by.

As well, the $200 dollars saved each month by not paying unions dues adds up.

What unlucky :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored: is paying $200 each month for union dues? Feel free to enlighten us if you don't mind. Highest I've heard of here (from both SEIU, IAFF, Teamsters, and a police union) is roughly $60/month. Often less. Potentially there could be a reason that it's that high, but I'll wait to share that reason until you share who's paying that much. If you can.

In my truck driving job I am represented by the teamsters and over the last 15 years I can say I have no problems with their representation. The work environment would be more hostile and brutal without the contract both sides follow and I can truly say if there was ever a place for union representation this is it. I have never had to have the unions help with discipline issues or to help me keep my job so we dont need to hear that old excuse. I do like the fact that we have always had a fair contract and as of the last few years labor and management have been more than willing to work together. If you add up all the pay and benefits my compensation package is close to 125K per year,not bad for sitting behind the wheel listening to my satellite radio and watching the stores unload my trailer. I know I would be hard pressed to find many jobs that offer that type of compensation without some advanced education. Could I function without the union,you bet I could and I dont think my compensation package would suffer much. There are many benefits to union representation pay being number three on my list.

You aren't the first teamster member I've heard say that; when representing truckers they do seem to perform quite well. Not always as good when representing EMS agencies, but why someone would choose them anyway is beyond me.

Despite their history, like them or not, they are an example (along with IAFF) of how a union can benefit their workers; better pay, increased safety standards, better/safer working conditions, protection against inappropriate managerial actions (ie vengeance), assistance in contract negotiations, lobbying at the local/national level...the list goes on and on.

Despite how much people will complain about them, and despite their flaws (yes, there are some depending on which local/union you see) unions are more beneficial than harmful to the workforce. Having one isn't a guarantee that things will improve for your job (especially in a right to work state) but it also isn't a guarantee that things will get worse either. It's also not a guarantee that the current relationship with your management will change; if it's a good one, then it'll probably stay the same. No reason why it shouldn't.

 

[46Young]

The bottom line is, an employer may opt to give generous pay, benefits, retirement and working conditions. This seems to be more the exception than the rule in EMS. Without union protection however, there's no guarantee that these benefits will be there tomorrow. There's no guarantee that your job will be there tomorrow, either. I'm not talking about layoffs, as that can happen in any union. I'm speaking specifically of your agency losing it's contract to another provider, or to fire based EMS. How many FD takeovers of EMS could have been prevented by adequate union representation? I know that a fair number of muni third service EMS have state retirement, but how about the others? A union could help negotiate that, where otherwise management would not be willing to make that compromise through negotiations.

Oh yes, we pay 67.04/month in union dues, money well spent IMO. We also contribute 7% of our gross earnings toward our pension. Even if I were to hypothetically put that same 7% into a 401k with a 6% employer match, which is standard, I'd only need to live 6 or 7 years past retirement to surpass that with yearly guaranteed pension benefits.

 

[MrBrown]

There is nothing wrong with unions; why do you think the cops and firefighters get such a good deal?

 

[triemal04]

The bottom line is, an employer may opt to give generous pay, benefits, retirement and working conditions. This seems to be more the exception than the rule in EMS. Without union protection however, there's no guarantee that these benefits will be there tomorrow. There's no guarantee that your job will be there tomorrow, either. I'm not talking about layoffs, as that can happen in any union. I'm speaking specifically of your agency losing it's contract to another provider, or to fire based EMS. How many FD takeovers of EMS could have been prevented by adequate union representation? I know that a fair number of muni third service EMS have state retirement, but how about the others? A union could help negotiate that, where otherwise management would not be willing to make that compromise through negotiations.

Oh yes, we pay 67.04/month in union dues, money well spent IMO. We also contribute 7% of our gross earnings toward our pension. Even if I were to hypothetically put that same 7% into a 401k with a 6% employer match, which is standard, I'd only need to live 6 or 7 years past retirement to surpass that with yearly guaranteed pension benefits.

Ok let's be honest here; I'm very pro-union and would advise essentially any service to look into one, but honesty and reality also need to be looked at. Grandiose claims that aren't always met or able to be met are part of what gives anti-union people so much to talk about. And not all your statements are fully accurate.

If you have a union, there is no guarantee that it will cause an increase in your wages and benefits; you will have the ability to bargain for it and negotiate a contract (a good thing by far) but management still has the option of refusing to meet your demands. When that happens the options are few: strike if you are allowed to (often even single role EMS agencies are prohibited from doing that and it's not the best idea for our line of work), extend negotiations (if both parties are willing) or enter into binding arbitration (which means that the results may not be what you want). Same goes for keeping those wages/benefits; they will last for the life of the contract, but when it comes up for renegotiation...see the preceding sentences. Having the option to negotiate is still worth it and this is still a benefit; just not a guarantee. Does make things easier though.

Even with a union a contract for an ASA (ambulance service area) can still be lost to another agency. A union would be great for PR in this respect, but contracts for ASA's are with the management of the service, not the rank and file. If it's decided to go with another provider when the contract is up...nutz.

State run retirement systems can be tricky things. I absolutely agree that a union could help in getting access, but that might not matter for say, a private service. Most publically run retirement systems require the beneficiaries to be public employees; belong to a private company and you are out of luck. Could exceptions be made? Maybe, depending on the state. But again, no guarantee that a union could do that. Help yes, but not guarantee it.

Advocate for unions, they're a good thing. But don't try and sell things that may not be accomplished.

 

[46Young]

Ok let's be honest here; I'm very pro-union and would advise essentially any service to look into one, but honesty and reality also need to be looked at. Grandiose claims that aren't always met or able to be met are part of what gives anti-union people so much to talk about. And not all your statements are fully accurate.

If you have a union, there is no guarantee that it will cause an increase in your wages and benefits; you will have the ability to bargain for it and negotiate a contract (a good thing by far) but management still has the option of refusing to meet your demands. When that happens the options are few: strike if you are allowed to (often even single role EMS agencies are prohibited from doing that and it's not the best idea for our line of work), extend negotiations (if both parties are willing) or enter into binding arbitration (which means that the results may not be what you want). Same goes for keeping those wages/benefits; they will last for the life of the contract, but when it comes up for renegotiation...see the preceding sentences. Having the option to negotiate is still worth it and this is still a benefit; just not a guarantee. Does make things easier though.

Even with a union a contract for an ASA (ambulance service area) can still be lost to another agency. A union would be great for PR in this respect, but contracts for ASA's are with the management of the service, not the rank and file. If it's decided to go with another provider when the contract is up...nutz.

State run retirement systems can be tricky things. I absolutely agree that a union could help in getting access, but that might not matter for say, a private service. Most publically run retirement systems require the beneficiaries to be public employees; belong to a private company and you are out of luck. Could exceptions be made? Maybe, depending on the state. But again, no guarantee that a union could do that. Help yes, but not guarantee it.

Advocate for unions, they're a good thing. But don't try and sell things that may not be accomplished.

You're right, perhaps I've come on a little strong with my pro union rants. It's just that I've seen how the typical worker is likely to be treated in an "at will" environment. I've experienced that firsthand. I feel that the employee needs to be able to level the playing field when dealing with management.

I know that being union doesn't guarantee anything. There have been various locals that have been subject to significant RIF's, furloughs, and wage freezes. But not being union, the employees are powerless to mitigate or otherwise have a fighting chance to lessen any insult to their salary and benefits. That's what I believe a good union does, gives the workers a fighting chance.

You're also right about private employers. Defined benefits are a thing of the past for most non municipal (private or hosp based) employers, and isn't likely to ever change. They're just screwed. Southwest Ambulance in AZ is the only private EMS provider I've found that has a defined benefit plan.

 

[VentMedic]

What unlucky :censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored::censored: is paying $200 each month for union dues? Feel free to enlighten us if you don't mind. Highest I've heard of here (from both SEIU, IAFF, Teamsters, and a police union) is roughly $60/month. Often less. Potentially there could be a reason that it's that high, but I'll wait to share that reason until you share who's paying that much. If you can.

Drop the profanity and attitude.

SEIU? Teamsters? And even IAFF or a Police union are considered unions for those with a "trade" and SEIU usually respresents those who do not require a certification or license in healthcare. $150 -$250 is often the going rate for a union that represents licensed professional healthcare workers or those in the tech industries. But then, those with higher education usually choose collectively in a facility not to be unionized. The Evironmental Technicians (Housekeeping) belong to SEIU and the RTS (or other allied heathcare professionals) and RNs are nonunion at many hospitals in my area. If the hospital is a union shop as you will find in union states, the licensed professional staff will choose to go with a union that specializes in their own profession rather then go with a union representing a service employee making 1/3 the wage and who job has no education, initial or ongoing, requirements. Yes, they could join SEIU and pay only $60 but what type of representation would they get? Very little if any for their profession or recognition for their education is in the bargaining.

It is difficult to have those who do not need additional education to bargain for a licensed professional employee's education days and allowance for CEUs/conferences on top of what is traditionally allowed for college classes for everyone. If the typical employee for SEIU is making $12/hour and you as a professional is making $45/hour, do you think bargaining for raises will be fair? Many will argue in terms of a set monetary value like $1.00/hour/year and maybe a Christmas bonus where as the profession staff would prefer a percentage increase each year. 4%/year would benefit the professional wage but would not be as attractive to those at a lower wage status.

If EMS wants to be represented by a union, it should be by one that is looking out for the best interest of the profession and those in EMS should start looking towards becoming healthcare professionals. The union officials for those considered to be a service (SEIU) or trade union will rarely have respect for the job the people are doing but are just doing their own job giving the same generic speech at contract negotiations they give across the board. At least the unions that represent RNs and a few other professional healthcare unions are ususally ran by members of that profession and address issues specific to nurses or whatever profession.

That's going to be specific to each situation; throughout my state the career fire departments (very nearly all union) are compensated enough without overtime to live comfortably. Not to say that people don't have second jobs (and for some it may be necessary due to family/lifestyle) but it's not needed to get by.

reaper was replying to the FF from California. Due to the cost of living in that area, many do need 2 or 3 jobs or do large amounts of OT as the OP had stated before. Right now CA, as well as other states, is scrutinizing the amount of OT done by the FDs for both budget and safety reasons. Those that got into a bad real estate market are definitely scrambling for hours to keep their house. If there are no cost of living problems or other issues in you area, consider yourself lucky. However, some may not be revealing their financial problems to you since you might be one to be very critical of them.

 

[reaper]

These numbers are for basic FF's only. The starting salary for firemedics is way higher. I was pulling in 65k base after the academy. NY money. My current cost of living is certainly not 40-50% higher here than it was in SC (proportional comparison of base salaries). The FDNY guys work less hours than you do, and use shift swaps to be off for extended periods. It's like they're never there, almost. They get the benefits from working there (20 and out pension as well, average highest 3 years +OT). Retire in your 40's. They can work construction, EMS, tend bar, bounce, anything they want for extra money, as they have plenty of time on their hands.

I know that Charleston is the wealthiest county in SC. They start medic crew members at around 38k. After promotion to crew chief, they get 45k/yr. you're saying that you're making 40-50k after one year. That flexible number implies a certain amount of OT. What is your base?
My base is of no concern to you. I have stated what my average is and yes, that is with minimal OT. I have enough on my hands with my company, I do not have time to work OT.You've also stated previously that you've worked for 16 different EMS agencies throughout your career. Assuming you always work two jobs at all times, that's at least changing FT jobs eight times or more. I can understand wanting to experience EMS in different regions, as I've done that myself. But 16 jobs, it sounds shady to me.
When you have been in as long as I have you will know. I stated that I do not stay at systems forever. I like to move around an work different areas. I am not someone who stays in one system for more then 3-4 years. So yes, I have worked in a lot of systems and sometimes 2-3 at one time.Okay, so you're making 50 grand after OT in an area of SC other than Charleston. We've been over how "at will" agencies are typically run in SC, and we know that high pay isn't the only factor to consider. That is right. I have stated the bennefits that I have. I do not go to work for any system, unless I research them first. I choose who I work for, not the other way around!
So, where's this supposed utopian EMS agency that's supposedly the best thing since sliced bread? Let us know so that others can apply there and be as satisfied as you. Curious that I spent six months in SC, and have spoken to many different individuals regarding other quality EMS agencies in the state (after experiencing CCEMS I began exploring other options) and have never heard of any EMS mecca in the upcountry. Tell us where you work, or I'm calling shenanigans on your previous claims.You obviously didn't talk to the right people. I do not disclose my employers on a internet forum, sorry ain't gonna happen.

You keep throwing this "at will" thing around, like it is something evil. Your employer can fire you, just as fast as mine can. You screw up and the union is not going to save your job.

I have seen unions come and go, in EMS. Some have helped and some have ruined good systems. Majority of EMS systems are nonunion for that very reason. A majority of the healthcare industry is non union, for that reason. Like I said, So systems may bennefit from a union and that is fine. But, I am not going to jump on every thread and shout the praises of unions to everyone. That gets annoying fast!

 

[46Young]

You keep throwing this "at will" thing around, like it is something evil. Your employer can fire you, just as fast as mine can. You screw up and the union is not going to save your job.

I have seen unions come and go, in EMS. Some have helped and some have ruined good systems. Majority of EMS systems are nonunion for that very reason. A majority of the healthcare industry is non union, for that reason. Like I said, So systems may bennefit from a union and that is fine. But, I am not going to jump on every thread and shout the praises of unions to everyone. That gets annoying fast!

No, my employer certainly can not fire me as fast as yours can. We have progressive discipline to handle most issues. There's a documented verbal warning, followed by a written warning, followed by another written warning, and finally a meeting with the fire chief who will then decide if you stay or go. Some things can get you fired off the bat, or put you right at step three, and with good reason in those cases. Some at will employers may have a similar system, but the local ensures that all employees are given due process.

I believe that the majority of EMS and healthcare systems are non union because it's in the employer's best interest. In my experience I've observed the common theme of at will employers being that things are ultimately done "in the best interest of the dept". If the agency needs to change policy, compensation, or any other conditions, they're free to do so without opposition. I'm not saying unions are 100% effective in safeguarding employee's rights and interests, but it does give the collective workforce a fighting chance when negotiating with management.

I also believe that the majority of EMS systems are non union because they belong to right-to-work states, are privately owned, or simply because management strongly opposes and thwarts any efforts to organize.

So it's annoying that I've been singing the praises of unions across several threads. It's no more annoying than the education nazis weighing in at each end every opportunity, but I'm not complaining about that. It's no more annoying than vollie bashing or frequent belittling of EMT-B's by saying they're just "first aid". It's no more annoying than members taking shots against fire based EMS. That's where I began my union fetish. There were numerous jealous posts and rants whining about how fire based EMS has superior everything compared to third service and privates. I've said that EMS should follow the IAFF's example and do business that way. That way EMS can improve their socioeconomic conditions instead of repeating the same jealous pot shots against the fire service. Education reform absolutely needs to happen, but that's not going to have any significant impact on conditions and salary without strong political organization, union or otherwise.

You state that your base is of no concern to me, but yet you were using your salary (+/-10 grand, intentionally vague I suspect) in an attempt to prove an earlier point. If you're working minimal OT, or not working OT due to "having your hands busy" (do they send you home with a mountain of work to be completed on your own time?), how does your salary vary by 10 grand?

If you're staying in state, and your service credit towards state retirement carries over, I could see how you would want to change employers. People do grow stagnant at a certain location. Nothing wrong with that scenario. If not, then it still sounds shady. I may not have decades on the job like you claim, but I'm no newbie either.

The last I checked, I was free to choose what employer I applied to, and they decide if they want to hire me. That holds true for either a union or non union system. You make it sound like you decide on a place and then tell them that you're now working there - "I choose who I work for, not the other way around!" If you're so highly desireable that you can just waltz into an agency and declare that you're now working there, why is your base only around 40k (maybe)? With decades of related experience?

If you want to hide behind the excuse that you aren't willing to divulge your employer, then so be it. As such, I'm still calling BS on your previous claims. I've stated numerous times where I've worked, and the salary/benefits/conditions witnessed at each place. These are all factual posts. I've fabricated nothing about my previous employers, only what I've directly observed.

 

[fortsmithman]

A majority of the healthcare industry is non union, for that reason. Like I said, So systems may bennefit from a union and that is fine.

Here in Canada a majority if not all are members of unions. Here in the NWT all health care with the exception of physicians are members of the Union of Northern Workers, And that union is a component of a even bigger union called Public Service Alliance of Canada.

 

[rescue99]

Here in Canada a majority if not all are members of unions. Here in the NWT all health care with the exception of physicians are members of the Union of Northern Workers, And that union is a component of a even bigger union called Public Service Alliance of Canada.

Good for Canada! EMS will have to stand together or accept what is, is what will be. Wages have not met with increased educational demands or its costs so far. Both of which have risen steadily over the last 10 years.