With the large influx of EMT's....

[triemal04]

What kind of a program you attending Dominion?

There are some pass/fail points and I agree, we must have them. Pharm and Cardiology, perhaps the ologies in general, would be 2 important milestones IMHO. 80% going into a final exam and an 80% on the final is a very reasonable expectation also. If a student can achieve 80 or above overall, the chance of passing licensure exams is pretty good.

I do worry about programs which almost appear to make it a goal to fail as many as they can to reduce the number of first try failures. NR only counts the first try as you know.
I am aware of instructors who have 90-100% NR pass rates where only 6 of 30 were left to take the exam due to weeding out practices. Weeding out those who "might" fail at NR on the first attempt doesn't say much for the program IMHO. Our goal as educators is to facilitate a learning process in order to give students the most reasonable opportunity to be successful. Tossing out the ones we feel "might" make us look bad is a horrible practice and one I hear about too often.

The lousy in the first place programs is a whole other subject so I won't get into that.

But how much of it is "weeding out" people that they think won't pass the NR test and how much of it is simply having high standards that are beyond a lot of people who shouldn't be in paramedic school but are? The NR test is a joke; it does not adequately test the requistite knowledge for this field and, far as I'm concerned, anybody who whines about how hard it is or how they can't pass should find a new career ASAP.

When I went through my class started with 24, sat I think 10 for the state/national test, and of that 10 2 had to retest once (both had failed by a very small margin). But, (and this includes those who failed initially) everyone felt that, compared to what we had done in class that test was much easier. Standards for the class where an overall 80% in the class and a minimum of 80% on every major exam with 90% required on 1.

And is this site currently completely :censored::censored::censored::censored:ed up for anyone else? Perhaps the admin should look into that...

 

[Hockey]

But how much of it is "weeding out" people that they think won't pass the NR test and how much of it is simply having high standards that are beyond a lot of people who shouldn't be in paramedic school but are? The NR test is a joke; it does not adequately test the requistite knowledge for this field and, far as I'm concerned, anybody who whines about how hard it is or how they can't pass should find a new career ASAP.

When I went through my class started with 24, sat I think 10 for the state/national test, and of that 10 2 had to retest once (both had failed by a very small margin). But, (and this includes those who failed initially) everyone felt that, compared to what we had done in class that test was much easier. Standards for the class where an overall 80% in the class and a minimum of 80% on every major exam with 90% required on 1.

And is this site currently completely :censored::censored::censored::censored:ed up for anyone else? Perhaps the admin should look into that...

Example?????????????

 

[triemal04]

Example?????????????

Having to log in multiple times (though maybe that's a hint from someone ) for a single post...posts not showing up (and no, I don't have any infractions...right now anyway)...

 

[rescue99]

Tri,

I already mentioned that all programs just have a large fail/drop out rate from time to time. It's the programs in which few pass everytime they run a course that concerns me. It is not representative of a good program to lose 2/3's of a class each and every time a course is run. To have several retake a licensure exam is pretty normal. Having too many fail to pass a licensure exam period, should be of concern if it happens over and over again in the same program. Those courses are ususally poorly and or undertaught.

 

[triemal04]

Tri,

I already mentioned that all programs just have a large fail/drop out rate from time to time. It's the programs in which few pass everytime they run a course that concerns me. It is not representative of a good program to lose 2/3's of a class each and every time a course is run. To have several retake a licensure exam is pretty normal. Having too many fail to pass a licensure exam period, should be of concern if it happens over and over again in the same program. Those courses are ususally poorly and or undertaught.

I see your point, but still, it may also be that the standards are simply to high for that area and the people who take the class. Granted, this would probably only be a problem for a few years until word started to spread around the area, but initially...

Or the class may also be poorly run, true. Just think that more needs to be looked at that class pass rates and NR pass rates in determining what is a good/bad class.

(It's a horrible analogy I know but I can't come up with a better one right now sorry) Most military special ops groups have somewhere between 75-90% of applicants fail the initial training. That doesn't automatically mean there is a problem, just that the standards (which are pretty well known) are very high. Could also be that way with some (though definetly not all) medic courses.

 

[Shishkabob]

We started with 22, and dropped one this past week.

The way they do exams is on a 1-5 number scale. If you get a 90%+, you get a 1, 85-90, you get a 2. 78%-85% is a 3. 75-78% is a 4, and anything below a 75 is a 5.


78% is the minimum to pass a test, so if you get a 4 or 5 you failed the exam. If you get two 5's, three 4's, or two 4's and a 5, you're dropped from the class.


The guy who we dropped this week got 5's on the first two exams.



On top of that, you need an 80% on the final. If you fail the final, you get one retake to get an 85%+

 

[rescue99]

(It's a horrible analogy I know but I can't come up with a better one right now sorry) Most military special ops groups have somewhere between 75-90% of applicants fail the initial training. That doesn't automatically mean there is a problem, just that the standards (which are pretty well known) are very high. Could also be that way with some (though definetly not all) medic courses.[/QUOTE]

umm...I think we're in agreement, not in oposition...lol

 

[Ridryder911]

But how much of it is "weeding out" people that they think won't pass the NR test and how much of it is simply having high standards that are beyond a lot of people who shouldn't be in paramedic school but are? The NR test is a joke; it does not adequately test the requistite knowledge for this field and, far as I'm concerned, anybody who whines about how hard it is or how they can't pass should find a new career ASAP.

When I went through my class started with 24, sat I think 10 for the state/national test, and of that 10 2 had to retest once (both had failed by a very small margin). But, (and this includes those who failed initially) everyone felt that, compared to what we had done in class that test was much easier. Standards for the class where an overall 80% in the class and a minimum of 80% on every major exam with 90% required on 1.

And is this site currently completely :censored::censored::censored::censored:ed up for anyone else? Perhaps the admin should look into that...

Actually, many need to remember that the NREMT only (as all board exams) test the minimal allowable for safety. Yes, even the NREMT would love to increase their standard but cannot as long as the scope/standards are low.

As well, the NREMT should NOT be used as a screening process as whom should be allowed into the field. This is the school and educational facility responsibility. Most never fail those that should be failed early on within the program. Instructors are weak in failing students when in fact a majority should have never accomplishing the program.

Becoming an EMT and Paramedic is way too easy in the U.S. No screen process, being able to repeat tests, averaging of scores and not to mention the dismay of clinicals. Most never really achieve their objectives, many are tardy or have coffee clinicals in lieu of really productive ones... again, don't blame the testing agency rather the system and those that comprise that .. (us).

R/r 911

 

[Shishkabob]

The NR could always up it's minimum passing percentage.

Say instead of 70%, they make it 85%.









Having said that, they better not do it till AFTER I get my medic.

 

[Sasha]

The NR could always up it's minimum passing percentage.

Say instead of 70%, they make it 85%.









Having said that, they better not do it till AFTER I get my medic.

With that attitude, hopefully they do it before.

 

[triemal04]

Actually, many need to remember that the NREMT only (as all board exams) test the minimal allowable for safety. Yes, even the NREMT would love to increase their standard but cannot as long as the scope/standards are low.

As well, the NREMT should NOT be used as a screening process as whom should be allowed into the field. This is the school and educational facility responsibility. Most never fail those that should be failed early on within the program. Instructors are weak in failing students when in fact a majority should have never accomplishing the program.

Becoming an EMT and Paramedic is way too easy in the U.S. No screen process, being able to repeat tests, averaging of scores and not to mention the dismay of clinicals. Most never really achieve their objectives, many are tardy or have coffee clinicals in lieu of really productive ones... again, don't blame the testing agency rather the system and those that comprise that .. (us).

R/r 911

I agree, NR only tests for the minimum, but at some point people need to 1)realize that that minimum level has been set way to low, 2)realize that just because they can pass it does not make them proficient, 3)understand how low the bar has been set to pass.

Far as it being a screening process...yes and no. I agree, the instructors should not be sending people to even attempt it if they are not qualified for this job regardless of their ability to pass the NR. But, to do that the standards for the class must be raised beyond what most are; look at the pass rates for the paramedic NR exam for confirmation of that; way to many people are failing it. But the NR test is used by so many states as THEIR certification test, and others simply certify anyone who holds a NR cert; if the way you show your particular state that you should be certified is by passing a simplistic exam...bad idea. If it isn't used to accurately judge someones knowledge, then as long as so many states use it their standard, then people who have no buisiness doing this will continue to enter the field. Raise the standards on the exam to be certified, and you will raise the quality of paramedics.

I'll blame the testing agency, but I will blame us as well. All bear some measure of responsibility.

 

[Ridryder911]

The NR could always up it's minimum passing percentage.

Say instead of 70%, they make it 85%.




Having said that, they better not do it till AFTER I get my medic.

I know you are joking, but sometimes discussed here is numbers. Truthfully, the number is irrelevant. I can write questions were one can barely make a 70% or easily make a 90% .
NREMT is quantified and evaluated all the time by PhDs and professional testers that review and re-analyze the tests administered. There is much more to it than one would ever expect and it really has weight in the professional means and standards.

R/r 911

 

[Dominion]

What kind of a program you attending Dominion?

Sorry to get back so late but I am in a class thats taught by three other paramedics. It is not accredited unfortunately but the only two programs in a 300 mile radius that I know of actually have bad reps (but both get you an AS).

The class is a pilot class for the local level 1 trauma center which used to run a bunch but had to stop for some reason. We're fortunate to have a teacher & director that believes in a strong work ethic in both class and clinical's. Our class is different in most I've seen that we do JUST class room portions at the beginning, we meet on a rotating schedule 6 hours one week 12 the next week. Once we've finished class room portions we begin clinicals, during clinicals and ride time months we are required to meet one day a month to take a mock boards practicals and written.

I don't think my class has any hard set weeding rules, and of the people who are gone I can think of only one or two who would make good medics but couldn't hack the class for whatever reason. One guy who is gone should never had been allowed in. I've never felt the rules were designed to get good pass rates but more to just make sure people who don't deserve it get through.

 

[Ridryder911]

I agree, NR only tests for the minimum, but at some point people need to 1)realize that that minimum level has been set way to low, 2)realize that just because they can pass it does not make them proficient, 3)understand how low the bar has been set to pass.

Far as it being a screening process...yes and no. I agree, the instructors should not be sending people to even attempt it if they are not qualified for this job regardless of their ability to pass the NR. But, to do that the standards for the class must be raised beyond what most are; look at the pass rates for the paramedic NR exam for confirmation of that; way to many people are failing it. But the NR test is used by so many states as THEIR certification test, and others simply certify anyone who holds a NR cert; if the way you show your particular state that you should be certified is by passing a simplistic exam...bad idea. If it isn't used to accurately judge someones knowledge, then as long as so many states use it their standard, then people who have no business doing this will continue to enter the field. Raise the standards on the exam to be certified, and you will raise the quality of paramedics.

I'll blame the testing agency, but I will blame us as well. All bear some measure of responsibility.

I believe you are missing the important point. As a test item writer for the NREMT, we can only write test questions that are in the current curriculum or now called scope. If it is not in there then it can't be tested (simple as that). In regards to the pass rate, actually in ratio the NREMT Paramedic exam has a high rate (in comparison to other health care professions).

Many with experience fail to recognize what minimal and safe standards are. When reviewing the NHTSA curriculum look how simplistic it is. Heck, look at the methodological ACLS cookbook standards that the cardiac portion is based from. Again, if the material is simplistic the test has to reflect the material. The NREMT cannot and will not obtain information from other books, study guides, etc... that is not the national curriculum.

When the national standards were developed how many were actually involved in the process? When I posted the link to drafts for review; how many actually filled out the suggestion and questionnaires or simply ignored and love to gripe about it later? NEMSE has had a web site at least twice with drafts for over several years asking for reviewers and suggestions, committees and their members were open for suggestions.. how many actively participated?

We are a post active group. We love to complain, then when able to change do no action until it is too late; only to complain again. Hence this is EMS.

R/r 911

 

[rescue99]

Yep..it isn't all about the numbers!

NREMT is quantified and evaluated all the time by PhDs and professional testers that review and re-analyze the tests administered. There is much more to it than one would ever expect and it really has weight in the professional means and standards.

R/r 911[/QUOTE]

 

[rescue99]

Becoming an EMT and Paramedic is way too easy in the U.S. No screen process, being able to repeat tests, averaging of scores and not to mention the dismay of clinicals. Most never really achieve their objectives, many are tardy or have coffee clinicals in lieu of really productive ones... again, don't blame the testing agency rather the system and those that comprise that .. (us).

R/r 911[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure where you're at Rid, but some folks are pretty uninformed about just how many fantastic EMS workers there are out there.
There are plenty of them! Only a road naive, classroom heavy individual would make so many cutting comments. It gets old hearing what illiterate low-life's we all are.

There are a whole lot of good people...with and without a college degree, in the trenches, saving lives and helping people. I think once a person actually gets in the field and works his/her first 3-4000 calls (not a classroom mock-up or an ER play date), the view from the other side is quite different

 

[gremlin75]

Instructors are weak in failing students when in fact a majority should have never accomplishing the program.

That I fully agree. When I went through my EMT course there were quite a few students in the class that were below the passing level so some "extra credit" was given to help bring scores up

Hockey, I'm in the same boat as you with finding an EMT-B job. At this point I'm not even trying any more. I was hoping to get some experience on a rig prior to starting a medic program but it seems like the services around me just need medics not emt's. Right now I'm just looking at taking a A&P for medic's class (its a prerequisite for the medic program I'm look at) then doing my medic course.

In the end Michigan just sucks right now for everything :sad:

later
gremlin

 

[Hockey]

I'm rocking out unemployment (if they ever do pay me) and if I finally do get it (whenever the state figures out whats going on) I'll soak it up as much as possible while I take medic so I can focus 100% on medic

 

[Ridryder911]

Becoming an EMT and Paramedic is way too easy in the U.S. No screen process, being able to repeat tests, averaging of scores and not to mention the dismay of clinicals. Most never really achieve their objectives, many are tardy or have coffee clinicals in lieu of really productive ones... again, don't blame the testing agency rather the system and those that comprise that .. (us).

I'm not sure where you're at Rid, but some folks are pretty uninformed about just how many fantastic EMS workers there are out there.
There are plenty of them! Only a road naive, classroom heavy individual would make so many cutting comments. It gets old hearing what illiterate low-life's we all are.

There are a whole lot of good people...with and without a college degree, in the trenches, saving lives and helping people. I think once a person actually gets in the field and works his/her first 3-4000 calls (not a classroom mock-up or an ER play date), the view from the other side is quite different

I guess that is why you don't mind minimum wage for Paramedics or having the excuse of using just one text book written at a 10'th grade level? Compare that with any other medical professional.

Just because one has worked thousands of calls does not mean that they are performing their job right (and we wonder why their pulling intubation?)

My God, Wake up! Just look at the rest of the health care industry and see that we are the only medical profession (yeah, that's what we are supposed to be) that does not require a degree to enter.

Please quit giving the hero complex of trench medicine.. B.S.! I know of many that work the trenches that have a degree as well. Only ignorance would prevail to think that one could not be intelligent and still perform the required work! One can have a formal education and still work and perform much better in the so called trenches. Like the old saying a Doc can dig ditches but a ditch digger can't be a Doc.

Kindergarten teachers are required to have more education than a Paramedic. Yes, coloring and learning ABC's, ... Worse, tthan that the kindergarten teacher has a higher education than most of the Paramedic Instructors. Yeah, to teach how to color requires a Baccalaureate Degree but to perform a crich or trach or sticking a needle in the chest only requires a GED. You don't see anything wrong there?

You want the profession to be treated like crap, so be it on your own time. It's a shame that when writing the test one has to use simple words because the national reading level of a Paramedic is about the 10'th grade level. How embarrassing! A so called medical professional that may not be able to read the drug insert (as long as they don't use fancy words)... You don't see a problem here? Ever noticed why JEMS, EMS, and the rest of the EMS rags have lot's of pretty pictures with the stories in comparison to other real medical journals? .....

Oh, I not misinformed about how many hero's we have. I see the T-shirts, the bumper stickers, the belt buckles and all the other paraphernalia crap such as BLS before ALS, or EMT saves Paramedic marketing sh^t. I look in almost any Wal-Mart parking lot and see the red/blue lights and antennas with the decals that will inform that I will see somewhere in the store a T-shirt that exclaims that there is a EMT in there. Yeah, professionalism at its finest.

Sorry, you don't like that many of us want the profession to succeed and improve to receive appropriate funding and become professional. That we want accountability based upon not just our mindless skills but our knowledge and clinical performance.

R/r 911

 

[Dominion]

I guess that is why you don't mind minimum wage for Paramedics or having the excuse of using just one text book written at a 10'th grade level? Compare that with.....<all that stuff by you>
R/r 911

You know I agree with Rid here to the fullest extent. And while I feel my instructor is a good instructor and he's doing the best he can I know that what I'm getting is a not a college level education. Personally I plan on going back to get my BSN after paramedic...not as a stepping stone into the nursing field, but to be that much of a better paramedic.

On the same token how many people do you think would wash out of the paramedic profession if they were REQUIRED to go get a BS or AS.

What options are there other than that? One potential (I have not been in EMS long nor have I read the studies, my fault) is to reduce the scope for paramedics, introduce 3 new standard scopes. Basic, but increase the education requirements, Intermediate which will be what all current paramedics are busted to, reduce what they can do. Advanced Paramedic, requires a BSP or an ASP in a reduce state or service scope.

Would this be really effective though at taking a step towards making paramedicine a medical profession on par with other medical fields.