When Law Enforcement Prevents You From Helping A Patient.....

[beckoncall62]

"Oh, once time a cop tried to PREVENT me from treating people who had been banged up in an automobile accident. They had hit his car and he was pretty steamed up about it. I guess cops can be the best of friends and the worst of friends." bstone 7-20-07 "What Makes You Mad On A Scene?"

This brings up something I've been wondering about for awhile: When I first joined our department I remember one of our EMT's relating to us an experience she had when stopping to help victims of an MVA. She initiated and was holding c-spine when a police officer told her to get out of the way. This was an accident she either came upon and /or witnessed outside of our district. I'd like to know from the more experienced of you if this has happened to you and how would you suggest handling it if I ever experience this?

 

[akflightmedic]

How to handle the situation is very simple.

If you are going to stop on a accident, which is foolish for about 99 percent of the ones you witness, do not initiate cspine precautions.

Yes, I have stopped for accidents but they were severe and remote.

Anyways, if you do stop, you can instruct the patient to hold their head still and do not move. Why commit yourself to the mentality that you need to immediately seize C-spine and then obligate yourself to not being able to let go??

If you are the lone responder, your hands need to be free. What if another patient gets worse, or something goes wrong with scene safety and you can not see any of this or perform due to being committed to holding cspine on a stable patient?

Just instruct the patient to sit still and not nod yes or no when you ask questions...speak the answers please. This does not mean you are not doing your duty to act thing, because in a sense you are. You are protecting yourself and the patient. When more help arrives and you feel the need to continue assisting, then that is a good time to take cspine. If they are capable of maintaining their airway and following commands, let them be.

By following these instructions, you have now prevented the problem of an officer asking you to step away and you feeling bad because you have to let go of cspine which you were taught never, ever to do.

 

[DT4EMS]

I agree with ak!

The other thing is most officers............. if they know who you are........... are not going to PREVENT anyone from rendering aid. LEO are no different than EMS. The overwhelming majority are great at what they do. Then there are that few (that get the most attention) that do not need to be in the field!

 

[firecoins]

most LEOs don't bother you. In my experience most LEOs don't want to initate care. They just want EMS to handle it. If passerbys are doing it and not killing the patient, ley don't do a thing.

 

[bstone]

This accident occurred while I was driving down a road in the National Forest. It was very remote and far, far away from any ambulance. I was rather shocked when the LEO prevented me from caring for the human beings who were laying on the ground bleeding.

It changed my perpective of law enforcement. My first cousin is the chief of police in a town close to me. I volunteered for four years as a Law Enforcement Explorer when I was in my teens. I seriously considered going into LE. Since this experience, however, I can't consider it.

 

[beckoncall62]

Le

I was in law enforcement for almost 11 yrs-up until I had my kids. This was back in the '80s and early '90s. My partner, in addition to being a police officer, was also a paramedic and a firefighter. We were members of a rural police dept., responded to all aid calls-and very often were first on-scene. Of course law enforcement was very different in a lot of ways back then. It can also vary from area to area-state to state. Now I'm looking at things from the perspective of an EMS provider. I was very interested in hearing everyone's different experiences with this subject and appreciate your responses. Thanks

 

[davis513]

This accident occurred while I was driving down a road in the National Forest. It was very remote and far, far away from any ambulance. I was rather shocked when the LEO prevented me from caring for the human beings who were laying on the ground bleeding.

It changed my perpective of law enforcement. My first cousin is the chief of police in a town close to me. I volunteered for four years as a Law Enforcement Explorer when I was in my teens. I seriously considered going into LE. Since this experience, however, I can't consider it.

Why would you let the actions of one person change your perspective on an entire profession and all the other men and women in that profession?

 

[bstone]

Why would you let the actions of one person change your perspective on an entire profession and all the other men and women in that profession?

As his supervisor who was on scene didn't care when I informed him that his officer was preventing me from treating human beings who were laying on the ground bleeding.

He said, "He's the arresting officer. It's his call." He was very smug and gave me a look of "get the hell outta here, kid". I was NOT impressed.

Oh...and these were officers with the US Forest Service. Federal Agents, if you will.

 

[Emtgirl21]

I've had officers say dont go talk to so and so because we rather they go to jail than the ER. A lot of people will go to the hospital just to get out of going to jail. However, if we say your suspect really does need to go to the hospital they won't stop us.

 

[Jon]

Brad - I'm sure there is more to the story - if the subject was in custody, the officer may have not wanted you interacting with him, as the officer doesn't know who you are... since you aren't the local EMS.

 

[firetender]

In the situation that you initially described, you were holding traction on a potentially seriously injured person. I assume you wouldn't be holding traction on someone as a casual decision.

In that case, you are committed until someone else more qualified than yourself will either pick up from where you're at or take full responsibility for the patient's welfare.

Since I've done this before, with no consequences, simply do not budge, making sure it's clear you are immobilizing an injury, and say, "Officer, I'm committed to this injured patient now. If you want me to stop what I'm doing you're going to have to arrest me because under no circumstances will I abandon my patient."

It's a clear statement that notifies the Officer of his liability and your professional attitude, and asks him to re-think his judgment or do something physically to prevent you from rendering care. That's the choice you're presenting. Few LEOs (hopefully none!) will interfere once so notified.

Sometimes, you're going to have to defend the safety of your patients like a junkyard dog and be willing to put yourself on the line in the process.

 

[bstone]

Brad - I'm sure there is more to the story - if the subject was in custody, the officer may have not wanted you interacting with him, as the officer doesn't know who you are... since you aren't the local EMS.

Jon, I presented my EMT license and I had a BLS trauma bag on me. None of them were being arrested, but they were subject to ticketing. Remember- they hit the vehicle of the Forest Service LEO and he was REALLY steamed about it. The LEO even barked at me to get away. He clearly lost control of his anger.

It was disturbing to see and even more disturbing that his supervisor didn't step in. "More to the story" or not, there were people laying on the ground bleeding.

 

[BossyCow]

We interface a lot with national park and national forest personnel. I've run into more of those types of situation in that area than with any other agency. I think there might be a bit of ... "We are too real.. emt's, paramedics, cops, enforcement officers......" at work. While I have worked with a few who were wonderful, in my experience, the majority have a difficult time seeing over the chip on their shoulders.

 

[medic5740]

communication before the incident

No one here so far has indicated that there was any communication before the incident between EMS and the law enforcement officers. I know that rural areas are different, but we have to take the time to meet any new officers who arrive in our rural area. We need to have some conversation with them about when we expect to be called, when we shouldn't be called, and when we are willing to help the officer out, if he needs it.

Now matter what situation occurs in the rural areas, the best that can occur is proactive planning. So, I would walk into the office of the officers in this discussion, and begin a line of communication with them about this. Having been an auxiliary officer, and EMT, FF, and paramedic, all these issues can usually be resolved with communication. If the officers don't respond positively, then it's time to get supervisors involved, yours and theirs. I would want this issue resolved so that the next volunteer who stops to help an injured person would not get the same kind of treatment.

I, too, am assuming that the volunteer who stopped to hold c-spine was doing so for a good reason, probably based upon the mechanism of injury. If there wasn't any serious mechanism of injury, why would you hold c-spine? I also agree that a straight-forward communication to the officer about the liability (s)he is assuming by ordering me to abandon the patient. After the fact, that liability issue is a great discussion point with the officer's supervisor.

I am glad that I have never personally been ordered to stop patient care on an injured patient by a law enforcement officer.

 

[bstone]

Communication is great. But when you have an angry cop who doesn't care....well....you're in a tough spot.

The situation I was in was I was camping with friends and happened upon this accident. So communication wasn't an option other than my presenting my EMT credentials and offering assistance to those who were laying on the ground bleeding.

It was shocking and at least one other poster here and confirmed this behavior by USFS LEOs is not unique.

 

[BossyCow]

The issue we have with park personnel is their transience. They tend to move through different parks pretty quickly. They might be here for a month, a week or just a couple of shifts as fill in from some other park.

Our local National Park and National Forest people put a new crop of EMT's through class every year and tell them they are on their own for CME and certification. We generally get those interested in going on with an EMS career at the end of a season looking for an agency that will sponsor them after the park has laid them off. They have had little or no hands on experience and no ongoing training.

 

[jmaccauley]

As emergency care providers, we all have our "turf" battles. When administering patient care, police will generally not interfere, other than to monitor what is happening. However, there have been occasions when the EMS personnel or the police don't communicate very well with each other. There are different priorities and with a little cooperation, both can achieve their objectives. The horror stories that both professions can relate to will often dictate their actions. If a police officer has care and custody of a "patient", a smart EMS provider will have to pick his battles, as they say. I have dealt with overly liberal Docs who refuse to treat an injured prisoner until the handcuffs are removed, effectively putting others at risk of violence. On the other hand, I have witnessed police officers refuse to allow medical treatment for an injured or sick prisoner, that ultimately resulted in lawsuits or worse. It's about communicating your intentions, not your authority.

 

[bstone]

I believe one of the biggest problems with Law Enforcement is they have too much power. Assume for a minute that the really steamed cop decided I was bad news and decided to arrest me. Any judge that would see that would likely laugh, but not before causing me time, frustration, fear, hiring a lawyer, etc. All because I (or another EMT in my position) pissed off a cop.

What sort of complaint can we have against cops who refuse our legal responsibility to care for the sick/injured? Not much. Tell our supervisors, who call the LEO's supervisor who promises to "talk to him about it".

Seems to me that there should be some mechanism in which we can make a complaint about an LEO and there be a formal investigation based on the complaint. Moreover, an investigation *not* lead by that LEO's dept. LEOs have too much power. The gun and badge give them a chip on the shoulder.

While a vast majority of LEOs are great, I can't help but to think about the ones who are not. Like the dozen or so Chicago PD officers who are now in jail for beating totally innocent civilians. Makes me sick to be a Chicagoan.

 

[jmaccauley]

Speaking of chips...You seem to have fallen into that trap of lumping all officers into your little world. I have the utmost respect for paramedics, even though I have seen patients expire while in their care. Maybe it would have happened regardless, but the family members will forever blame the medical treatment for the death.

Complaints against police are routinely handled internally and occasionally will require federal intervention to resolve an issue. If this is your personal opinion, it may affect the way you interact with police in the future. Consider the reasons why you are so bitter and I suggest you re-evaluate your career choice.

With authority comes great responsibilty. Not everyone is capable of balancing the two successfully, but as you said, the vast majority can and do. Do not let the actions of the few cloud your judgement of an entire profession.

Telling a police officer what you WILL do, as opposed to advising what you believe should be done are two different things entirely. If you can check your ego and inflated sense of importance, you can usually deal more professionally with an officer who may have his own "ego" problems.

 

[bstone]

Speaking of chips...You seem to have fallen into that trap of lumping all officers into your little world. I have the utmost respect for paramedics, even though I have seen patients expire while in their care. Maybe it would have happened regardless, but the family members will forever blame the medical treatment for the death.

Complaints against police are routinely handled internally and occasionally will require federal intervention to resolve an issue. If this is your personal opinion, it may affect the way you interact with police in the future. Consider the reasons why you are so bitter and I suggest you re-evaluate your career choice.

With authority comes great responsibilty. Not everyone is capable of balancing the two successfully, but as you said, the vast majority can and do. Do not let the actions of the few cloud your judgement of an entire profession.

Telling a police officer what you WILL do, as opposed to advising what you believe should be done are two different things entirely. If you can check your ego and inflated sense of importance, you can usually deal more professionally with an officer who may have his own "ego" problems.

jmaccauley, I am rather confused by your post. Notice where I said that a vast majority of LEOs are great, but a small group tend to ruin it. I am not lumping anyone into any small world. I am simply recounting my terrifying experience of an LEO who completely lost control and prevented me from treating human beings who were laying on the ground and bleeding. He hid behind his badge and gun in denying this.

When someone complains to our medical director/state agency about an EMT there is a major investigation. When someone complains about an LEO there is often little to no official investigation and the "good old boy" mentality sets in. That profoundly disturbs me. It should disturb anyone.