What if you are relieved by an "incompetent"?

[mycrofft]

boingo , firecoins, don't make me come back there! (>>>

"Incompetent" can describe a situation where you do not have the authority to do something or assume responsibility simply because you are not entitled to. It does not necessarily mean you are a meathead, but simply that you or they are not on the list of people who can be allowed to help, by the rules.

How about "ethical" or "moral" responsibility?

What if the fire crew was demonstrating perfect performance?

Here's an anecdote: decades ago, a gas leak caused an explosion in an auditorium attached to a teaching hospital. One account has it that police and FD controlling the scene admitted spontaneous volunteer med students wearing their usual scrubs or lab coats, but excluded volunteer real MD's who were wearing suits or casual clothing.

I'm enjoying this conversation.

PS: If I see reds and blues in my rearview mirror, I don't stop for accidents except maybe to contribute to scene safety. I can lay down a mean flare pattern, except it's so dangedly dry out here right now.

 

[BossyCow]

I would think from a legal standpoint, we do not have the authority or responsibility to determine the competence our our fellow workers. If we see evidence of blatant incompetence, we do have a responsibility to act on that knowledge. I would think in a court of law, the presumption of competence would be accepted due to the legitimacy of the responding agency.

For example, if we are stopped because the wreck happened right in front of us and we were unable to go around it. If we chose to provide some basic first aid in a safe manner, in a way we felt comfortable, if the local-yokels show up and take over care, they are the responding agency. They have a mandate to provide care. They would have more authority on that scene than anyone passing through, be they EMT-B or Trauma Surgeon. Now, if you see something blatantly wrong, dangerous to the pt or monumentally incompetent, that is between you and the pts attorney.

We are not watchdogs of all other agencies. We cannot assume that responsibility. It would be a liability nightmare.

 

[mycrofft]

Agreed, largely.

We have to remember that the jeezley pests on scene are often convinced they have a duty to act as they do, rather than follow the rules (which they are probably ignorant about anyway).

 

[fma08]

So we don't have some sort of even moral obligation to act... yes, may not be "on the clock" but seriously, someone screwing up like that?

 

[firecoins]

So we don't have some sort of even moral obligation to act... yes, may not be "on the clock" but seriously, someone screwing up like that?

Yes. We have no moral obligation to act while off duty and on scene. Afterwards you can report it to the state D.O.H. but you are not to interfere with it.

 

[mycrofft]

Ah, ummmmmm....

Morals are personal and derived from one personal values and ususally basd upon your experience and cultural upbringing. There's no legal-ethical imperative (maybe a legal-legal one?), but "moral" is personal. As from the word "mores" ("moh-rays").
"Moral" is what propels you to act despite, if not against, convention. MAny good, and many bad, things have been done on a "moral" basis.
(Usually when someone tells me I have a moral imperative they want my vote or are passing a colection plate)

 

[EMTinNEPA]

Unless something happens, then it will be considered abandonment. Technically, it is abandonment. That is why some services refuses to allow anyone transport of lesser level.


R/r 911

Even if you get released by medical command?

 

[mycrofft]

EMTinNPEA, I think the issue was...

...releasing "down" versus "up" the food chain.
Define medical command...another paramedic, a doctor who drives up, a firefighter EMT when his captain takes over the scene?

 

[Hazmat91180]

IF it were me, and this has happened to me before, when witnessing an accident, I DO feel a moral obligation to make sure everyone is ok. At that point I would take c-spine precautions and hold them there until help arrives. At THAT point when the crew comes, THEY make the decision to honor the precaution or not, and I feel that I did everything I could have.

 

[EMTinNEPA]

...releasing "down" versus "up" the food chain.
Define medical command...another paramedic, a doctor who drives up, a firefighter EMT when his captain takes over the scene?

Releasing down. And by "medical command" I mean online medical direction, i.e. a doctor on the phone.