Volunteers?

[phideux]

I do. This is my career, not a hobby.

If you poured concrete for a living, would you be upset if a crew of volunteers offered to pour concrete for free, for only the cost of material, to your customers?

Or, if you worked as a plumber and you saw an ad on a a competing plumber's truck that offered to do work on anyone's pipes for free, just because he loved it? Would that be an issue?

It's funny. I don't see volunteer docs in any of the hospitals I frequent. Same with nurses or RTs. Or any other allied health professional. Why should we allow volunteers to negate the worth that we have as professionals? After all, when you give something away, it loses any perceived value.

I don't agree, I work as a paramedic, and I also volunteer as one. Where I volunteer is a small tourist city that gets an influx of almost 20,000,000 tourists throughout the summer, throw 3 motorcycle rallies on top of that and this is a busy place. I don't feel our volunteer squad undercuts the paid guys when we run. As a matter of fact, all I get are the paid crews telling us how much they appreciate us out there, especially when the SHTF on a busy weekend in tourist season. We run a fully stocked ALS unit.

 

[Christopher]

Are you aware that you have 100% no idea what you are talking about? if not, consider this your friendly notification.

there are 0 statutory differences between paid and unpaid providers in New Jersey. They both have to attend the same EMT program (initially 120 hours, now I think it's up to 160 or 220 hours with the newly updated standards). They both renew their certification the same way. Their continuing education is identical.

I only go off what NJSFAC lobby tells me, so I freely admit I have no idea. I was under that impression based on how hard they fought the recent legislation to add regulation to vollies.

Good to know there is no difference. Glad I am wrong.

 

[Christopher]

In fact, your own state's EMT program is 169 hours, of which 15 of those hours are advanced airway. So without the airway stuff, you only have 154 hours. so who really has low standards?

Somehow I missed this, I'm fairly certain we're on the new 220 hour standard. Our real problem is the Comm College system can't add hours. If the cert says "169 hours" the college may only add a trivial amount on top of that. That being said, the education is practically free so they limit free hours. I welcome the addition of more hours.

And I have nothing against volunteers, provided they maintain the same minimum training standards as their paid counterparts, the same response times, and same equipment standards. I have been a volunteer, been a twohatter, been a paid employee, and worked alongside all three. as long as you know what you are doing, and do your job, i could care less if you recieve a paycheck.

Amen.

 

[Veneficus]

I should probably ignore this thread for my own good

I do not buy the argument that volunteer agencies close down paid positions.

I do think that volunteer organizations prevent the expansion of paid service.

The idea that volunteers are just as capable as professionals because they carry the same certification is vastly over simplified in this discussion.

Volunteer organizations have collectively and consistently, through trade groups, opposed all major increases in EMS credentialing. It is the second largest EMS political group in the US. (The first being fire)

To claim you are just as credentialed when you were the one advocating to keep minimally skilled labor credentials for an entire industry and call yourself equal is really a bit disingenious.

But let us consider who volunteers may be taking jobs from?

With the required accreditation of EMS programs, a fair amount of them are or are going to be run through institutions of higher learning in some at least convoluted capacity. (another discussion entirely)

EMS programs actively advertise for students, and there is great apppeal. Make a difference, save lives, serve your community, respect... blah blah blah.

So sign up for financial aid today!

Then when it is all said and done, accept your minimum wage, no benefit, abysmal working hours and conditions for Slave Labor IFT company inc.

Can't afford your car payment if you miss a shift? Oh well, take it or leave it.

You want to apply to a paid 911 service? Sorry, competition is high and well, go and get some "experience" doing this for free because EMS still has a vocational labor culture where education is frowned upon.

What other industry is that even possible in or you are considered lesser because you went to school?

So the people you are putting out of work are the young newly minted EMS providers.

Volunteer agencies are just a good old boys club. How often do you hear a good old boy claim their club is not a good idea for one reason or another?

But here is the facts, by lobbying to maintain low levels of education, you are providing a disservice to your patients so you can feel better about yourself.

By not demanding that local funding go to EMS, Fire, Police, etc, you are perpetuating the culture that EMS service is really "nice to have" and not a requirement of society. There are places where EMS service is mandated of the government for its citizens. The US is not one of those places.

If you are so good at being a provider, why would you do it for free?

Is your time and efforts not valuable?

I am going to use the software engineer as an example, sorry, nothing personal.

Let's assume that you like to provide quality software. Let's assume you are one of the best and dedicated at it. Wouldn't you like to make a living doing that instead of doing it on the side for nothing and being forced to accept a menial wage job, perhaps in an entirely different industry to put food on your table and cloths on your kids?

Does anything inhibit you from opening up your own "high quality" business and competing for marketshare with your offerings?

Rhetorical, nothing does. If you have something of value, you can sell it.

But what if there was an exclusive law or ordinance that said only your competator could provide service, no matter what level?

What if your "customers" could get somebody with your same credentials for free?

Do they have any way of knowing what you provide is superior? They are not industry insiders. They do not know what is quality and what is flash. They do know what is cheap.

Maybe they would be willing to pay a higher price for better quality, but they don't know what it looks like.

I saw the term hobbyist used here. That is a very polite way to refer to a John. (a person who frequents prostitutes) Whether legal or moral is of no consequence. They take advantage of the less fortunate for as little price as possible in order to pleasure themselves. It is a very fitting term for a volunteer.

Volunteers have no stake in the game. At anytime they can walk away. Never to return and they lose nothing. Imagine if your internet service provider, your cell phone company, your water depatment, sewage department, or any other service provider you rely on could do that!

Lights are off and it would cost me time and money to restore your power? Too bad, so sad, I am in this to feel good about myself, extra time in school or extreme economic loss is not what I am interested in. But I hold the same credentials as the other linemen!

A volunteer can choose not to miss the big play for their kid. A professional might lose their livelyhood choosing not to go to work to do that.

Just something to consider.

 

[Christopher]

I do not buy the argument that volunteer agencies close down paid positions.

I do think that volunteer organizations prevent the expansion of paid service.

As long as EMS Services are paid like they are now, this is probably very true.

The idea that volunteers are just as capable as professionals because they carry the same certification is vastly over simplified in this discussion.

So is the idea that paid providers are any more capable and professional. EMS largely is neither and examples from both "sides" are endless.

Is your time and efforts not valuable?

I am going to use the software engineer as an example, sorry, nothing personal.

Let's assume that you like to provide quality software. Let's assume you are one of the best and dedicated at it. Wouldn't you like to make a living doing that instead of doing it on the side for nothing and being forced to accept a menial wage job, perhaps in an entirely different industry to put food on your table and cloths on your kids?

This is a false choice; many of us provide both free and paid services, some provide equal amounts of both (in terms of economic output).

But what if there was an exclusive law or ordinance that said only your competitor could provide service, no matter what level?

Welcome to software patents. We're fighting to change this. We'd actually like it to be easier to provide the same service as your competitor.

What if your "customers" could get somebody with your same credentials for free?

Do they have any way of knowing what you provide is superior? They are not industry insiders. They do not know what is quality and what is flash. They do know what is cheap.

Maybe they would be willing to pay a higher price for better quality, but they don't know what it looks like.

Daily reality in software (and hardware). My only advice is to avoid fighting the reality of the situation.

A volunteer can choose not to miss the big play for their kid. A professional might lose their livelyhood choosing not to go to work to do that.

Just something to consider.

Knowing that somebody is only working just hard enough to put food on the table is cold comfort. All that means to me is they're going to fight for themselves (the rest of you be damned).

Obviously these are hyperbole and the reality is somewhere in the middle.

Why do you get so many people yearning to be volly EMS/Fire?

Because bagging groceries is pretty boring and makes it tough to feel like you're doing something meaningful...and we need people to be Ok with bagging groceries.

If you raise educational standards you won't get rid of volunteers, you'll just raise the barrier to entry. Unfortunately, once the pay gets better then you'll have the same problem we have in computer science programs..."I'm getting a bachelors in comp sci because that's where the money is."

 

[Carlos Danger]

Some of us think that vollys are bad because they provide a lesser service. I disagree with that; I would agree that many volly services are lacking but so are many paid services. I also doubt that many states have different minimum standards for paid and volly services. That is an EMS problem, not a volly problem.

Some of us think vollys are bad because they threaten our jobs or "hold the profession back". I don't think there is any evidence of that at all. And more importantly, even if there was, there's nothing you can do about it. Competition is a fact of the marketplace, any marketplace. Every industry and every profession involves competing with others we'd rather not have to compete with.

The fix, again, involves raising and enforcing the standards.

 

[Veneficus]

Obviously these are hyperbole and the reality is somewhere in the middle.

Why do you get so many people yearning to be volly EMS/Fire?

Because bagging groceries is pretty boring and makes it tough to feel like you're doing something meaningful...and we need people to be Ok with bagging groceries.

If you raise educational standards you won't get rid of volunteers, you'll just raise the barrier to entry. Unfortunately, once the pay gets better then you'll have the same problem we have in computer science programs..."I'm getting a bachelors in comp sci because that's where the money is."

Humans are not the only altruistic species on the planet. But all of them, including nonprimates use altruism as an organism level reproductive strategy.

I agree many people want to "mean something" and use volunteering as a way to achieve that.

But I disagree we should hold down standards in order to make it easier for these people to feel better about their lot in life.

Smoking, drinking, drugs, sex, volunteering, extreme sports, eating.

Choose your vice. But if it didn't do something for you, you wouldn't do it.

Some of us think that vollys are bad because they provide a lesser service. I disagree with that; I would agree that many volly services are lacking but so are many paid services. I also doubt that many states have different minimum standards for paid and volly services. That is an EMS problem, not a volly problem.

Some of us think vollys are bad because they threaten our jobs or "hold the profession back". I don't think there is any evidence of that at all..

You would be mistaken. There is ample example of political lobbying and pressure from volunteer trade organisations over decades to maintain low standards to prevent the barrier to entry.

It is only logical if volunteer agencies were to dissapear, it would be replaced with something, not a vacuum.

 

[Rialaigh]

Of course it hasn't happened. But what's to keep the state of Delaware from deciding that they don't want to continue to fund county-based ALS response units. Yes, even though we are a county service we get a significant portion of funding from the state. How about if the Delaware volunteer firefighter Association did some lobbying and all of a sudden it was decided to give ALS and BLS to the volunteer fire departments. "Hey, you guys already have ambulances. Why don't we just put ALS stuff on them."

The volunteer fire service is a strong force to be reckoned with here.

Do I think it's going to happen? No.

Do I think that it's being thought about? All the time.

That's one of the nice things about the Internet, we can disagree.

It is my feeling, my belief, that volunteer EMS providers, those people who perform my job for no compensation reduce the perceived value of our professional occupation. We keep talking about why we don't get paid more, why were not taken seriously as a profession… We lack education, we are seen as blue-collar workers and not medical professionals… Worst of all, there are people that do our job for free. Why buy the cow when the milk is free? The fact that people will continue to volunteer as paramedics damages our ability to ever be taken seriously as a profession and it puts a crimp in our salary negotiations. I'll admit, I like making a decent living. I like the shifts that I work. I'm happy being a paramedic, but I certainly won't do it for free.

What other profession (other than fire and police) can you take a year long course and make as much money as we do (welding maybe). I mean seriously, I think there is almost no argument for making MORE money in EMS. We get good benefits, good retirement (Relatively) and the money (while poor) is way higher then most people with a year of tech college education. I think the pay pretty fairly reflects the job currently....you said it yourself, education. Until then I see no argument for pay raises across the board..etc..etc...

Now there are services that are always the exception but the EMS service as a whole is paid pretty well for what we do (and how we are trained).

 

[Tigger]

What other profession (other than fire and police) can you take a year long course and make as much money as we do (welding maybe). I mean seriously, I think there is almost no argument for making MORE money in EMS. We get good benefits, good retirement (Relatively) and the money (while poor) is way higher then most people with a year of tech college education. I think the pay pretty fairly reflects the job currently....you said it yourself, education. Until then I see no argument for pay raises across the board..etc..etc...

Now there are services that are always the exception but the EMS service as a whole is paid pretty well for what we do (and how we are trained).

I might add that is getting increasingly more difficult to get a fire or police job without some sort of college degree. Especially in my area it's nearly impossible to become a cop without an AA in Criminal Justice or a Bachelor's in something else. Fire departments are also starting to make having a fire science something more than a "nice to have." There is no opportunity without promotion in these services without a college degree, and no one really wants to hire someone that will spend their entire career on the line if they can help it.

 

[Carlos Danger]

You guys give volunteers way too much credit for influencing the EMS industry.

Considering that in many states volunteer agencies barely exist, I'm not sure how they negatively impact that state's effort to improve its EMS system.

There is ample example of political lobbying and pressure from volunteer trade organisations over decades to maintain low standards to prevent the barrier to entry.

Sure there is lobbying by vollys. There's also lobbying by fire associations, non-profit EMS agency associations, for-profit EMS agency associations, and EMS educators.

None of them seem particularly interested in increased standards (i.e. increased cost) for equipment or education.

I am not aware of any sweeping improvements to EMS that were supported by everyone else but somehow blocked by volunteer services. Time and again I hear of fire organizations doing that, but not volunteers.

I am not aware of any "professional" EMS services that were somehow disallowed to raise their standards by a neighboring volunteer service.

Did vollys stop some of the most progressive EMS systems from becoming what they are? Of course not.

It is only logical if volunteer agencies were to dissapear, it would be replaced with something, not a vacuum.

Of course it is logical that they would be replaced.

I don't think, however, that logic forces the conclusion that the paid service that would likely replace them would necessarily offer a higher-quality service.

I'm not "pro-volunteer" or "anti-volunteer". Personally, I couldn't care less if every volunteer EMS service in existence ceased service tomorrow. I have no dog in this fight.

But I frequently see career EMS folks blame volunteers for every ailment that afflicts EMS, and accusing volunteers of always offering poor service while the paid folks always offer excellent service. And I think that's a cop-out.

 

[Carlos Danger]

What other profession (other than fire and police) can you take a year long course and make as much money as we do (welding maybe). I mean seriously, I think there is almost no argument for making MORE money in EMS. We get good benefits, good retirement (Relatively) and the money (while poor) is way higher then most people with a year of tech college education. I think the pay pretty fairly reflects the job currently....you said it yourself, education. Until then I see no argument for pay raises across the board..etc..etc...

Now there are services that are always the exception but the EMS service as a whole is paid pretty well for what we do (and how we are trained).

Well, compensation and working conditions do vary considerably from place to place, but on the whole I would agree. I'm not sure on what basis paramedics think they can justify demanding more pay.

Even if educational standards were increased.....compensation is based on the value of the service you provide, not on your education.

$40-60k/ year seems pretty typical for a paramedic with a few year's experience who works little or moderate overtime, and that's pretty decent change, all things considered.

 

[Rialaigh]

You guys give volunteers way too much credit for influencing the EMS industry.

Considering that in many states volunteer agencies barely exist, I'm not sure how they negatively impact that state's effort to improve its EMS system.



Sure there is lobbying by vollys. There's also lobbying by fire associations, non-profit EMS agency associations, for-profit EMS agency associations, and EMS educators.

None of them seem particularly interested in increased standards (i.e. increased cost) for equipment or education.

I am not aware of any sweeping improvements to EMS that were supported by everyone else but somehow blocked by volunteer services. Time and again I hear of fire organizations doing that, but not volunteers.

I am not aware of any "professional" EMS services that were somehow disallowed to raise their standards by a neighboring volunteer service.

Did vollys stop some of the most progressive EMS systems from becoming what they are? Of course not.



Of course it is logical that they would be replaced.

I don't think, however, that logic forces the conclusion that the paid service that would likely replace them would necessarily offer a higher-quality service.

I'm not "pro-volunteer" or "anti-volunteer". Personally, I couldn't care less if every volunteer EMS service in existence ceased service tomorrow. I have no dog in this fight.

But I frequently see career EMS folks blame volunteers for every ailment that afflicts EMS, and accusing volunteers of always offering poor service while the paid folks always offer excellent service. And I think that's a cop-out.

Volunteer fire services have lobbied and blocked legislation multiple times in the past 10 years in many states to raise the bar for minimum fire certification to FF1. In many rural states the area covered, in terms of size and structures is covered by a volunteer majority. Volunteer fire services are, as a generalization, the single largest thing holding back the pubic service community as a whole. I am not familiar enough with EMS volly services but I understand the fire side very well and I can tell you...it's ugly at best in most of the south.

 

[Rialaigh]

Well, compensation and working conditions do vary considerably from place to place, but on the whole I would agree. I'm not sure on what basis paramedics think they can justify demanding more pay.

Even if educational standards were increased.....compensation is based on the value of the service you provide, not on your education.

$40-60k/ year seems pretty typical for a paramedic with a few year's experience who works little or moderate overtime, and that's pretty decent change, all things considered.

I have a 4 year college degree from a well regarded private school with a decent GPA (3.0) in Economics, I could not find a job to save my life anywhere in the financial or corporate sector that paid over 40k a year starting out. My job prospects as a paramedic are much better in terms of stability and pay then my prospects with a 4 year degree...

 

[Mariemt]

Wow, I am on a volunteer squad with 18 NREMTs and 4 Paramedics.
Of the paramedics, 2 have associate degrees in paramedicine that the State gave a grant for and the other 2. One is and RN that bridged over and then took the NR exam and the other is a BSN who also bridged.

We have training sessions every other meeting.

Our service does bill, not as high as many city services but high enough to have state of the art equipment, ambulances and money to provide ongoing training for us.
we can travel to conferences, take any related classes etc.
my program was actually college credit and spanned over two semesters. It ran almost 250 hours.

We are required to have just as much training as any paid service.

looks like posts like this one got ignored because it proved the thought wrong.

I volunteer because I live in a small town, these are my friends, family and neighbors.
I have had paid training that I can take anywhere.

I love what I do and its good for the soul.

I will say we are now talking about going to a paid county wide service. I don't like this. Yes being paid to carry my pager would be nice, but the response time wouldn't be great for my oaitients. Having a volunteer emt respond and then wait for us to show? I don't know. Volunteers are hard to come by these days.

I will say again. I am just as educated as any other NREMT and our medics even more so than most.
we just love what we do. And larger cities have paid squads, they don't look down on us, at all whatsoever.

 

[Veneficus]

Considering that in many states volunteer agencies barely exist, I'm not sure how they negatively impact that state's effort to improve its EMS system..

I am not sure I agree with this statement. I have never even heard of a state with no volunteer EMS providers. In some very populated states paid providers are the minority.

None of them seem particularly interested in increased standards (i.e. increased cost) for equipment or education.

You really don't think EMS educators lobby for an increase in EMS education? That doesn't make sense to me.

Firstly, I am still a US EMS educator, and I support increased educational standards all the time. I don't know even 1 EMS educator in any country that doesn't.

Secondly, more education means more job security and opportunity for EMS educators. It seems a it counter productive to keep educational requirements low.

I will admit that some medic mills have instructors and their business model is quantity over quality, but these institutions seem to be steadily declining.

I am not aware of any sweeping improvements to EMS that were supported by everyone else but somehow blocked by volunteer services. Time and again I hear of fire organizations doing that, but not volunteers.

In the 2000 reforms, significant reforms were inhibited by a coalition of fire service and volunteer agencies. It was that coalition's demands at the time that set EMS back easily 20 years.

I don't think, however, that logic forces the conclusion that the paid service that would likely replace them would necessarily offer a higher-quality service.

Neither do I. I have worked for perhaps the worst EMS service in the US, which was a full time paid department.

However, I think it is logical that if you were to remove a group that historically blocks change (look up some of the efforts of th NJ first aid council) that you open the door for collective inceased standards.

Now eliminating volunteers certainly will not remove the fire service lobby, which is both larger and more powerful, but recently some very respected fire service chiefs underwent mergers believing in the fire service propaganda on EMS, and are now finding that they basically bought into their own BS, and ended up questioning whether or not a merged service really is a good idea because they cannot make it work like they advertized.

But I frequently see career EMS folks blame volunteers for every ailment that afflicts EMS, and accusing volunteers of always offering poor service while the paid folks always offer excellent service. And I think that's a cop-out.

There is no agreement even on what excellent service is.

I think the ailments of EMS fall squarely on the rank and file. For they have not demanded their own increasesin standards as we have seen in every successful healthcare industry and even the fire service.

 

[Tigger]

looks like posts like this one got ignored because it proved the thought wrong.

I volunteer because I live in a small town, these are my friends, family and neighbors.
I have had paid training that I can take anywhere.

I love what I do and its good for the soul.

I will say we are now talking about going to a paid county wide service. I don't like this. Yes being paid to carry my pager would be nice, but the response time wouldn't be great for my oaitients. Having a volunteer emt respond and then wait for us to show? I don't know. Volunteers are hard to come by these days.

I will say again. I am just as educated as any other NREMT and our medics even more so than most.
we just love what we do. And larger cities have paid squads, they don't look down on us, at all whatsoever.

No one is disagreeing here. I think we can all agree that every EMT nationwide meets the minimum standard.

It's excellent that your agency goes above and beyond. However, as the saying goes, the plural anecdote is not data. Your agency is not representative of the overall status of EMS in this country. That is a good thing.

 

[Veneficus]

looks like posts like this one got ignored because it proved the thought wrong.

I volunteer because I live in a small town, these are my friends, family and neighbors.
I have had paid training that I can take anywhere.

I love what I do and its good for the soul.

I will say we are now talking about going to a paid county wide service. I don't like this. Yes being paid to carry my pager would be nice, but the response time wouldn't be great for my oaitients. Having a volunteer emt respond and then wait for us to show? I don't know. Volunteers are hard to come by these days.

I will say again. I am just as educated as any other NREMT and our medics even more so than most.
we just love what we do. And larger cities have paid squads, they don't look down on us, at all whatsoever.

Saw it, registered it as having heard it 1000 times before. No real need to reply to it.

But I offer any agency a standing invitation to pay me to come out, observe what they are doing, and tell them where they really stand.

 

[Mariemt]

Saw it, registered it as having heard it 1000 times before. No real need to reply to it.

But I offer any agency a standing invitation to pay me to come out, observe what they are doing, and tell them where they really stand.

Why would we do that when my director is frequently asked to observe other agencies, review their run reports and make suggestions on where improvements can be made also working with Pearson /Bradybooks on their 12th edition for Emergency Care
Why pay someone from a message board when we have 6 certified instructors on our team?
We have 18 NREMTs 4 of them are RNs, 2 Lpns and one RN student
4 paramedics. 2 of them associates of paramedicine, one bridged RN and one Bridged BSN
Tell is where we stand?

 

[Veneficus]

Why would we do that when my director is frequently asked to observe other agencies, review their run reports and make suggestions on where improvements can be made also working with Pearson /Bradybooks on their 12th edition for Emergency Care
Why pay someone from a message board when we have 6 certified instructors on our team?
We have 18 NREMTs 4 of them are RNs, 2 Lpns and one RN student
4 paramedics. 2 of them associates of paramedicine, one bridged RN and one Bridged BSN
Tell is where we stand?

You have no idea what my credentials are.

But in any event, there is a reason lawyers don't represent themselves in court and doctors don't try to diagnose their own illnesses.

An outside, objective look is actually very valuable to any organization in any industry, it is why they pay consultants what they do.

 

[Mariemt]

You have no idea what my credentials are.

But in any event, there is a reason lawyers don't represent themselves in court and doctors don't try to diagnose their own illnesses.

An outside, objective look is actually very valuable to any organization in any industry, it is why they pay consultants what they do.

No, I don't know what your credentials are. However you are lumping volunteers into one large category of undereducated care providers. That is an ignorant assumption