tension pneumo + hypotension

Thank you...

Everytime I see somebody claim tracheal deviation as a late sign makes me want to manually deviate their trachea.

I have tried to hunt down the source of this misinformation and nearly a decade ago actually figured I narrowed down to where it comes from.

In many US paramedic texts, there are quotes out of context from actual medical textbooks. (with the language usually dumbed down) In this particular case, "tracheal deviation" as a sign was kept, but the definition was not, from surgical textbooks of the 70s and 80s.

Tracheal deviation is defined as 3mm or more from an imaginary line between the mental symphysis and the center of the suprasternal notch. It is not a late sign.

Even under the best of circumstances is difficult to detect and assumes normal fusion of the mandible and no variation in sternal position. However, using a piece of suture (I was taught how to look for it by an old school surgeon in the US) or another type of plane can help greatly in measuring.

The gross deviation which everyone imagines as "tracheal deviation" is a late sign, but by the time you actually see it, you really missed many earlier signs or you didn't get to the patient in time to really help. This seems to be what is passed down through EMS education but it is definately not the full story.

Perhaps the people who perpetuate it thought they figured out an obvious error that surgeons overlooked?

Is it really practical to be identifying such subtle changes in many prehospital environments (actual question, not rhetorical)? I get that its our job to be turning chaos into order to a degree, but there is a limit. You take a major trauma pt. Blunt pelvic, abdominal and chest trauma. They're proper sick but you don't quite have all the hands or space your need. You're pouring morphine into them but you're still not quite on top of their pain yet. They're moving about a lot. Screaming/talking/moaning. You feel like you're on top of most of the picture. They weren't obviously tensioning when you started but they've had a bit of fluid because you've been chasing some some ?pelvic trauma related haemodynamic instability, and they're still a bit dicey in that way. Their O2 sats drop a bit but you have to trouble shoot some pleth waveform issues on top of everything else. At some stage you have to move or are already moving down a bumpy road, rocking and rolling around in the back. I'm completely open to the idea that I might be wrong and that I should be managing my time better or something, but I just can't see a lot subtly happening in that environment, with the exception of some special situations.


Im surprised that you would have to wait for them to become so compromised before you intervene, toying with a respiratory arrest after they become hypoxic or intervening when the signs of poor perfusion are becoming evident i would have thought earlry intervention would be better than chasing the eight ball once they are ready to drop their bundle.

Yeah but the 'lowest common denominator' argument come in here. If you are captain of the good ship clinical practice guideline and you're sitting in the captain's chair one day thinking, "I've a ship's company of almost 3000. Some of them are barely capable of keeping their drool in the mouth. How do I go about proticolizing the sticking of large, sharp pieces of metal into an already profoundly sick person's chest?" Then the answer is probably, "when its painfully obvious that its needed".
 
Is it really practical to be identifying such subtle changes in many prehospital environments (actual question, not rhetorical)? I get that its our job to be turning chaos into order to a degree, but there is a limit. You take a major trauma pt. Blunt pelvic, abdominal and chest trauma. They're proper sick but you don't quite have all the hands or space your need. You're pouring morphine into them but you're still not quite on top of their pain yet. They're moving about a lot. Screaming/talking/moaning. You feel like you're on top of most of the picture. They weren't obviously tensioning when you started but they've had a bit of fluid because you've been chasing some some ?pelvic trauma related haemodynamic instability, and they're still a bit dicey in that way. Their O2 sats drop a bit but you have to trouble shoot some pleth waveform issues on top of everything else. At some stage you have to move or are already moving down a bumpy road, rocking and rolling around in the back. I'm completely open to the idea that I might be wrong and that I should be managing my time better or something, but I just can't see a lot subtly happening in that environment, with the exception of some special situations.

Medical answer: it depends.

If you have a seriously crashing patient that is the focus of all of your efforts, taking time to measure for tracheal deviation is on my list at about the same priority level as what I plan to do for lunch after the call. (actually slightly lower)

I also wouldn't be too concerned with tracheal deviation when transport time is only a few minutes. But when you start to get in the 45+ minute range, I don't like surprises.

But, when your scenario changes to being soley responsible for airway and breathing, then using clinical skills to anticipate and prepare for ongoing complications is certainly indicated. Especially if all you are doing is squeezing the bag. If you are tasked with managing an airway, you should do it 100%.

Not all pneumos present in multitrauma and even when they do, they most often appear over time, not on initial patient contact. Perhaps the population I have seen the most pneumos in during street time is people who were assaulted with fists and feet. So when you are evaluating a person who looks hemodynamically stable and you are deciding if you are going to turf him to a lower level of care or leave him onscene to his own devices, a little bit of clinical accumen may go a long way.

In major incidents, it is a tool of retriage and reassesment in anticipating your future transport and resource needs.

In austere conditions, I think the ability to function without dependancy on technological resources is absolutely a must.

Personally, I am a reformed sinner, when I was being taught these "primitive" techniques, I was quick to complain and point out all the modern wonders of technology.

But having worked in disasters, with indigent populations who could not afford such technology, and in austere conditions, I am more than sold on the need to have these "archaic" skills.

I have adopted the philosophy of a few of my teachers that anyone can use technology, but knowing what to do when you don't have it and being able to apply that knowledge is really what seperates the men from the boys.

Technology should amplify ability, not replace it.

(But I would still be grateful if anyone would buy me one of those pocket sized ultrasounds for whatever holiday or occasion strikes you)


Yeah but the 'lowest common denominator' argument come in here. If you are captain of the good ship clinical practice guideline and you're sitting in the captain's chair one day thinking, "I've a ship's company of almost 3000. Some of them are barely capable of keeping their drool in the mouth. How do I go about proticolizing the sticking of large, sharp pieces of metal into an already profoundly sick person's chest?" Then the answer is probably, "when its painfully obvious that its needed".

When it comes to trauma, I think EMS providers are not responsible for a majority of blame from lack of knowledge or ability.

Trauma is an extremely broad and complicated medical topic. Rather than spend the time this topic deserves most providers (including non EMS trauma providers) are often given some very basic procedures to follow rather than have them start weighing decisions.

US EMS, not only because of educational time components, but because of the system philopsophy, really gets short changed to basically "just drive." They also face the complication of not having dedicated rotation time at a major trauma facility.

So they are basically set up to fail. If you don't regularly see major trauma, even minor stuff looks very severe to you. It is set up for the error of overtreatment.

As far as I recall, in the US, paramedics are expected to diagnose and treat tention pneumo. Implying there is already tension present.

They are not expected to decompress simple pneumo because if it is not major, (usually accepted as greater than 16%) watchful waiting to see if it self limits is a valid treatment. It doesn't automatically equate to a chest tube.

Of course when a chest tube is required, its utility is undisputed.
 
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Doctors who don't care?

They are found everywhere, that is a problem beyond my ability to solve.

Doctors who require large amounts of technology to function because of their lack of knowledge should probably not advertize that too loudly.

But it does not excuse the perpetuation of inaccurate teaching.

Yes, yes. We all know US docs are helpless/worthless without our beloved technology. My point was 3mm of deviation is nothing, that could be purely physiologic and normal. And I was unable to find any text that defined deviation as 3mm or greater (searched AccessMedicine, AccessSurgery, AccessEmergencyMedicine, and MDConsult). So if you provide some links to this reference I would love to see it.

Edit: I did not check pubmed, as I was simply curious what was in teaching text, before someone brings up that I didn't look everywhere, that was intentional. For those that are unaware the resources I listed above are online collections of many of the major medical/surgical texts that are available that are searchable.
 
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Yeah but the 'lowest common denominator' argument come in here. If you are captain of the good ship clinical practice guideline and you're sitting in the captain's chair one day thinking, "I've a ship's company of almost 3000. Some of them are barely capable of keeping their drool in the mouth. How do I go about proticolizing the sticking of large, sharp pieces of metal into an already profoundly sick person's chest?" Then the answer is probably, "when its painfully obvious that its needed".
In our case mate, the good ship CPG is a lot more aggressive than the lowest common denominator realise.
 
Yes, yes. We all know US docs are helpless/worthless without our beloved technology..

It seems more so with every passing day and post about just x-ray or CT.

But the deviation as I mentioned before I learned from a US surgeon. I'll PM you his info.

My point was 3mm of deviation is nothing, that could be purely physiologic and normal. And I was unable to find any text that defined deviation as 3mm or greater (searched AccessMedicine, AccessSurgery, AccessEmergencyMedicine, and MDConsult). So if you provide some links to this reference I would love to see it..

In just a quick google search I found articles in radiology, ENT, pediatrics, endocrinology, C/T surgery, anesthesia, and oncology as 3mm or greater being considered tracheal deviation in an adult and 5mm in children. (I didn't know about the child measurement before the search.)

I am going to simply conclude this is a general rule of deviation and not specific to tensionpneumo.

Edit: I did not check pubmed, as I was simply curious what was in teaching text, before someone brings up that I didn't look everywhere, that was intentional. For those that are unaware the resources I listed above are online collections of many of the major medical/surgical texts that are available that are searchable.

Should the articles not suffice, I can look through the library next time I am there. I don't have access to searchable texts other than the current editions of the ones I own.
 
I dunno, I just think that through training and experience, you gain the ability to use the clinical picture to figure it out. When someone tries to tie your hands about making a judgement call based one ONE sign that may or may not be related to a pneumo, thats a paranoid "mother may I " system.

But then, its California
 
Since I was taught to do it by a surgeon, I would say it is rather easy, without a radiograph. But does require something to measure with.

I am highly skeptical of your anecdote, especially considering the wide variation in body habitus. Maybe with some "cream skimming" of low BMI patients, I could believe it. But, even if it is possible that a physician can reliably identify a deviation of "3mm", would it even mean anything?

Considering the variation in human anatomy, it would seem that 3mm deviation is probably a relatively normal variant and probably useless during the exam of a patient with a suspected pneumothorax. Is this definition based on any empirical data or is it just the traditional teaching established by someone decades ago based on their opinion?
 
I am highly skeptical of your anecdote, especially considering the wide variation in body habitus. Maybe with some "cream skimming" of low BMI patients, I could believe it. But, even if it is possible that a physician can reliably identify a deviation of "3mm", would it even mean anything?

Considering the variation in human anatomy, it would seem that 3mm deviation is probably a relatively normal variant and probably useless during the exam of a patient with a suspected pneumothorax. Is this definition based on any empirical data or is it just the traditional teaching established by someone decades ago based on their opinion?


Asked and answered.

In just a quick google search I found articles in radiology, ENT, pediatrics, endocrinology, C/T surgery, anesthesia, and oncology as 3mm or greater being considered tracheal deviation in an adult and 5mm in children. (I didn't know about the child measurement before the search.)

I am going to simply conclude this is a general rule of deviation and not specific to tension pneumo.
 
Just ride the bus and look at throats. You'll see the variations..

People teach and write who have little or no first hand experience in prehospital medicine. They either have only seen widely deviant tracheae (death's door), or are passing on what they were told; in the case of teachers, with flagrantly displaced adam's apples denoting pneumo. (Another strike against training moulage; how do you teach a 3mm deviance with greasepaint?).

Pt with recurrent small spontaneous pneumos (CXR reveled a small crop of potential blebs just waiting for something to come along) blew a couple while with us, but never went to tension, despite NO decompression, and evidence was he had done so before.
 
I agree WHOLEHEARTEDLY. People shouldn't quibble over one detail, it'll give them tunnel vision. it just dosent work like that. You have to look at the whole picture. You should be spending more time trending vital signs, getting lung sounds and percussing, and doing a thorough reassessment.

I'll post some pics of a case study I kept from over there, where we accidently found a pneumo secondary to getting his foot blasted off from a landmine. Sneaky stuff. Prime example of the need to put the whole picture together.
 
I agree WHOLEHEARTEDLY. People shouldn't quibble over one detail, it'll give them tunnel vision. it just dosent work like that. You have to look at the whole picture. You should be spending more time trending vital signs, getting lung sounds and percussing, and doing a thorough reassessment.

I'll post some pics of a case study I kept from over there, where we accidently found a pneumo secondary to getting his foot blasted off from a landmine. Sneaky stuff. Prime example of the need to put the whole picture together.

Why would a pneumo not be suspected secondary to a blast injury?

There is still a shockwave.
 
And those sneaky little shrapnel bahstids.
 
And those sneaky little shrapnel bahstids.

I didn't know you were from Boston ;)

Actually I have a rather goodbook on describing IEDs sending blast debris along fascia planes instead of disrupting them.

I don't see why a landmine wouldn't do the same. (physics and all)
 
Because A: the guy came in from a local hospital after sitiing there for two hours and had no signs at that point (one of the first things I checked) and B: it reared its ugly head through a routine reassessment an our into our treatment.
 
Because A: the guy came in from a local hospital after sitiing there for two hours and had no signs at that point (one of the first things I checked) and B: it reared its ugly head through a routine reassessment an our into our treatment.

Sounds like the normal progression of it.
 
Yeah, I'm not saying it was atypical or amazing, but the case study is a good teaching point, especially with the pictures. I'll post it later
 
Excellent.
Yeah, missiles of all sorts will follow funny paths ion side and outside the victim, especially if they are the typical "low" velocity of frags* (not primary missiles from high explosives at short range, though).

Hypotension sounds like the LAST sign.




*Also cheap or small handguns; had one that went through the antihelix of the ear, entered the skin behind the external ear, skimmed along the left lateral-nuccal skull and essentially popped out the posterior-left nuccal area. Knocked him down but all soft tissue damage. Shortbarrel .38 fired from a vehicle at about fifteen or twenty feet, victim quickly turned his head when the shooter called him.:ph34r:
 
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I was taught to look for signs of hemodynamic instability / signs of shock...primarily skin signs and pulse rate/quality. In other words signs that the pneumo has progressed into tension. This way the Needle-T can be accomplished during the ABC's and no wasting time getting a BP on-scene.

In Los Angeles, it's 80 mmHg systolic to decompress without online medical control contact...seems a bit extreme.

As far as tracheal deviation, I was taught to feel for it, as one would notice the tension/tug when one pushes on either side before one visually notices a trachea moving to the side...
 
I will admit that I was always taught that it(tracheal deviation) was a late sign.....but I am always open to new ideas. In the end though I think the the earliest sign of a tension would be like many have said and present with the hemodynamic instability. It won't take very long for the CO to drop once the heart starts to get pressure on it. Obviously diminished unilateral lung sounds and respiratory distress wouldn't hurt either to get a even better differential.
 
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