Steroid Testing in EMS...your thoughts?

[Bay_Medic]

first time posting here although ive been lurking for quite a while.

ive been hearing talk thrown around about EMS agencies (public and private) and fire deptartments modeling their pre-employment testing requirements after Pheonix to include a steroid test, as well as random tests during employment. this issue was brought up at work yesterday and suprisingly it grew into a fairly heated discussion. some felt it was necessary and justified, others seemed to think it was too invasive and a waste of money given the prevalence of their use (apparently these tests are very expensive).

just curious to get others opinions on the issue. do you think anabolics are a problem in our field? to be honest, i always thought these tests were included in the pre-employement drug test.

 

[Seaglass]

Fire is another story, but I hadn't heard of them being a problem for people who only work EMS before. If there's enough budget left over after testing for more common drugs, I have nothing against testing for them, though.

 

[VentMedic]

Unfortunately there have been a few headlines about this and agencies may be justified in their reasons for drug testing. Some FFs are fairly obvious in their anabolic steriod use especially if they are competitive body builders. In many FD hiring disqualifiers you will probably see this:

must not have used illegal drugs including anabolic steroids in the last twelve (12) months

Police, Firefighters Face Different Steroid Standards
'Police Enforce The Law. We Do Not,' Asst. Fire Chief Says

August 2007
http://www.kpho.com/news/13899975/detail.html

Valley firefighters and police tied to federal steroid probe
Oct 30, 2008
http://www.abc15.com/content/news/i...e-tied-to-federal/GiUfvs6anEK86zX6aAIHOQ.cspx

Local Firefighter’s Arrest Part Of Probe Stretching From China To Texas
June 1, 2009​

http://www.kwtx.com/copperascove/headlines/46658807.html

FDNY Firefighter Put on Desk Duty After Steroid Bust
http://www.firehouse.com/node/59818

And yes, since some areas like CA and FL, EMS and Fire are both the responsibility of the FD.

 

[Bay_Medic]

ive definitely noticed that steroid use is becoming more common, especially on the fire side. it seems like its now a disqualifier for most fire departments yet none of them are actually testing for it. i guess theyre just seeing if something comes up in their background/polygraph.

im really not sure where i fall on this debate though. with a modest background in chemistry and pharmacology im certainly aware that the dangers of steroids are beyond over-stated for a responsible user and much of the risks are media-myths. but at the same time, misuse and abuse can lead to health problems which would seem to effect statistics and insurance rates. and in the end, theyre still scheduled substances.

i heard a rumor that AMR was testing for steroids in certain areas. any truth to this?

 

[VentMedic]

It was actually much more prevalent in the 70s and 80s to where it was common knowledge as to who was using.

 

[guardian528]

given the prevalence of their use

i'm not aware of their use being that prevalent, maybe more so in fire but i couldn't say.

i have no knowledge on how to test for steroids, but it seems logical to have them included in drug tests.

 

[Bay_Medic]

i'm not aware of their use being that prevalent, maybe more so in fire but i couldn't say.

i have no knowledge on how to test for steroids, but it seems logical to have them included in drug tests.

oh i meant to say some people thought it was a waste of money because their use is not prevalent. especially on the EMS side.

 

[VentMedic]

oh i meant to say some people thought it was a waste of money because their use is not prevalent. especially on the EMS side.

That depends. Some EMT(P)s want desparately to move on from AMR to the FD and may use the anabolic steriods to gain an edge in physical performance.

 

[denverfiremedic]

I've been told we may be tested but it never happens! testing for roids coast a lot of money and you might have some trouble if you single people out so to test everyone would coast thousands. I dont see why a privet company would bother they usually have more seriouse drug users ETOH and such to worry about.. oh and yea AMR guys would need to juice to get into fire anyways hahaha

 

[citizensoldierny]

Why would they want to discourage steroids? They should start you lifting weights and giving you shots in the *** the day you start in the ems field that way back injuries and the like could be avoided and Americans could safely get bigger.

 

[Aidey]

Seriously? Do some research on the side affects of steroid use. There are very good reasons that people shouldn't be using them. You don't need to be a body builder to be able to lift and lift with good form.

I would be interested in seeing the results of a study assessing how frequently people are being found to use steroids. Just because of the culture differences I can see how it would be a larger problem in fire departments than in the private sector, but that doesn't mean I would be shocked to hear about someone in the private sector using.

Personally I don't think it's a bad idea, but I'm also a fan of random drug testing across the board for any public or government employee.

 

[Bay_Medic]

Seriously? Do some research on the side affects of steroid use. There are very good reasons that people shouldn't be using them. You don't need to be a body builder to be able to lift and lift with good form.

I would be interested in seeing the results of a study assessing how frequently people are being found to use steroids. Just because of the culture differences I can see how it would be a larger problem in fire departments than in the private sector, but that doesn't mean I would be shocked to hear about someone in the private sector using.

Personally I don't think it's a bad idea, but I'm also a fan of random drug testing across the board for any public or government employee.

after working for a private ems company and now an fd, youre absolutely right, its more prevalent in the fd. although i wouldnt necessarily call it a "problem" since their use doesnt conflict with or jeopardize their quality of work (from what ive seen).

i also disagree with the side effects of steroids being a serious issue for a knowlegable/responsible user but i do agree with random drug testing. the fact that this isnt done on a regular basis for rec drugs is unbelievable. not that i think its a big problem, but it just takes one bad apple for a serious problem to happen.

 

[VentMedic]

i disagree with the side effects of steroids being a serious issue for a knowlegable/responsible user but i do agree with random drug testing. the fact that this isnt done on a regular basis for rec drugs is unbelievable. not that i think its a big problem, but it just takes one bad apple for a serious problem to happen.

LOL!

Bay_Medic, are you from California? If so, haven't you read about your own Governor's medical history which most of it has been attributed to anabolic steroids?

Also, did you not read any of the news links I posted? The FFs, LEOs and EMTs aren't getting these steroids from their family doctor. Actually some are getting them from Paramedics, either private or with the FD, who think they are doctors.

You need to do your homework before spouting off about something you may know little about. It also sounds like you are using steroids and are trying to justify their purpose. If you as some one who has a little medical education can not determine what side effects and health problems are caused by anabolic steroids, maybe your calling isn't in a medical profession. You might consider picking a career where drug testing will not be an issue. The medical professions generally require a certain amount of accountability and supporting illegal drug activity usually isn't part of that.

 

[46Young]

As far as steroid use in EMS being a problem, I don't see it. The majority of EMS workers leave much to be desired both functionally and asthetically, from my personal observations. It's also tough to get in gym time when you're working two or three jobs in addition to family time and hobbies.

I don't see much performance benefit with steroid, GH, or insulin use for either the fire side or EMS. Steroids don't affect connective tissue, so muscle tears are to be expected at some point. You're mostly gaining mass for mass' sake, with little functional carryover. It's also much more strenuous to move around all that mass, and you'll likely accelerate your ASHD potential as well. As far as illicit thermogenics, I could see some going that route. They work, but I wouldn't want to find out the hard way if my ticker can handle that stress or not. I've worked 6 arrests in gyms for males in their 20's. Steroid or thermogenic use is at the top of my differentials, followed by congenital cardiac defects.

As far as aspiring FF's, fireground tasks can be made much easier with a few simple exercises - conventional deadlifts, olympic style (elbows forward) front squats, overhead dumbbell walks, DB/KB swings, renegade rows to name a few. It's really not that hard to do it the right way.

 

[Bay_Medic]

LOL!

Bay_Medic, are you from California? If so, haven't you read about your own Governor's medical history which most of it has been attributed to anabolic steroids?

Also, did you not read any of the news links I posted? The FFs, LEOs and EMTs aren't getting these steroids from their family doctor. Actually some are getting them from Paramedics, either private or with the FD, who think they are doctors.

You need to do your homework before spouting off about something you may know little about. It also sounds like you are using steroids and are trying to justify their purpose. If you as some one who has a little medical education can not determine what side effects and health problems are caused by anabolic steroids, maybe your calling isn't in a medical profession. You might consider picking a career where drug testing will not be an issue. The medical professions generally require a certain amount of accountability and supporting illegal drug activity usually isn't part of that.

whoa, first off, the fact that you are insinuating that im using drugs is ridiculous. for the record, im not and never have and completely disagree with their usage. i made the thread not to justify the use of steroids, but to discuss the need for drug testing which is more of a budget issue if anything.

but if you'd like to get into this topic...i will say that, as someone with some medical knowlege, i do understand the risk of side effects that come with using certain drugs. im also able to look at things objectively and know that the majority of side effects associated with steroid use have little scientific merit, mainly due to the lack of human trials. whether youre a user or not, its hard to disagree with this.

the point id like to make is this, i dont condone steroid use in public service at all, but we'd all be lying to ourselves if we acted like it was the major problem in this field. rather than spending an exorbitant amount of money on testing for these drugs, why not use the money on more serious problem like alcohol use? how about nutritional guidelines for firefighters?

 

[Bay_Medic]

As far as steroid use in EMS being a problem, I don't see it. The majority of EMS workers leave much to be desired both functionally and asthetically, from my personal observations. It's also tough to get in gym time when you're working two or three jobs in addition to family time and hobbies.

I don't see much performance benefit with steroid, GH, or insulin use for either the fire side or EMS. Steroids don't affect connective tissue, so muscle tears are to be expected at some point. You're mostly gaining mass for mass' sake, with little functional carryover. It's also much more strenuous to move around all that mass, and you'll likely accelerate your ASHD potential as well. As far as illicit thermogenics, I could see some going that route. They work, but I wouldn't want to find out the hard way if my ticker can handle that stress or not. I've worked 6 arrests in gyms for males in their 20's. Steroid or thermogenic use is at the top of my differentials, followed by congenital cardiac defects.

As far as aspiring FF's, fireground tasks can be made much easier with a few simple exercises - conventional deadlifts, olympic style (elbows forward) front squats, overhead dumbbell walks, DB/KB swings, renegade rows to name a few. It's really not that hard to do it the right way.

totally agree with this

 

[VentMedic]

i made the thread not to justify the use of steroids, but to discuss the need for drug testing which is more of a budget issue if anything.

Can you come up with numbers to back up your point to where the cost of drug testing is not justified?

How about calculating the cost of insurance rates?
How about the cost of replacing those arrested or death from drug use?
Do you know how much it costs to train one FF?
How about the PR costs after each arrest or death from illegal drug use?

The FD departments have been striving for higher standards which is why many do stress no steroid use or even cigarette smoking for one year before hire. Maybe if the private ambulance companies raised their bar a little above any warm body will do and police their own, some of the things like drugs and alcohol would not have to be discussed so often. Until then random testing may have to be an option.

 

[mycrofft]

Steroid abuse is unlawful. End of story.

If they'd refuse you for too many speeding tickets or simple assault, why not breaking health and safety codes and assoicated crimes (conspiracy, maybe accomplice to theft or theft of drugs, mopery and doipery)? Can't be bonded. Subject to arrest. Besides, you want to work with someone who likes to skirt the law and discipline issues?

 

[Bay_Medic]

Can you come up with numbers to back up your point to where the cost of drug testing is not justified?

How about calculating the cost of insurance rates?
How about the cost of replacing those arrested or death from drug use?
Do you know how much it costs to train one FF?
How about the PR costs after each arrest or death from illegal drug use?

The FD departments have been striving for higher standards which is why many do stress no steroid use or even cigarette smoking for one year before hire. Maybe if the private ambulance companies raised their bar a little above any warm body will do and police their own, some of the things like drugs and alcohol would not have to be discussed so often. Until then random testing may have to be an option.

i actually dont know the exact cost and dont think i ever said it wasnt justified. i've just always been under the impression that these tests are expensive (more so than the standard rec drug tests, i know that) which is where the discussion came from in the first place.

i dont undertand why you seem to be getting so pissed of at what im saying. especially since im agreeing with you that random drug testing should be done and also agree that a few dollars spent in prevention could save a lot of money in the long run (because yes, i know how much the rest of what you referred to costs). overall i think fd's should be setting the same standard as law enforcement, im just unsure if this step should take priority over others, thats all.

 

[VentMedic]

i actually dont know the exact cost and dont think i ever said it wasnt justified. i've just always been under the impression that these tests are expensive (more so than the standard rec drug tests, i know that) which is where the discussion came from in the first place.

i dont undertand why you seem to be getting so pissed of at what im saying. especially since im agreeing with you that random drug testing should be done and also agree that a few dollars spent in prevention could save a lot of money in the long run (because yes, i know how much the rest of what you referred to costs). overall i think fd's should be setting the same standard as law enforcement, im just unsure if this step should take priority over others, thats all.

If you don't know the cost, how do you know they are as costly as you have "heard"? In a profession that fails to police itself about a lot things including patient care, why should employers look the other way with illegal activity? Don't you think that it would end up costing them more?