SIDS whats your school of thought?

[Ridryder911]

I would do all I could...thats just me...I don't ever give up!!!

So; do you work the code for you or the patient? Let's be serious.. n-e-v-e-r?

So you rather be unethical, cause a hospital and EMS bill (approx. from $5,000 to $10,000) dollars to a family that will be guaranteed to have to purchase a funeral policy (>$10.000).
Nice going... All because, one has can not deal with death or do their job.

Yeah, a real hero. You demonstrated your caring......

Get some exposure and study more about pediatric arrests.

R/r 911

 

[mikie]

I'll just jump right in...

I'd work the baby if some signs of life where there...especially if the call came in as stopped breathing (witnessed) or the 'know-abouts' of the baby were known (parent: "i just left the room for 10 minutes!")

Could a hysterical enough parent 'force' you to do something? -make you do CPR and Tx?

 

[KEVD18]

I'll just jump right in...

I'd work the baby if some signs of life where there...especially if the call came in as stopped breathing (witnessed) or the 'know-abouts' of the baby were known (parent: "i just left the room for 10 minutes!")

Could a hysterical enough parent 'force' you to do something? -make you do CPR and Tx?

thats a whole nother story. now your talking about a regular run of the mill code, not trying to revive a corpse

 

[mikie]

thats a whole nother story. now your talking about a regular run of the mill code, not trying to revive a corpse

I was speaking of the latter, (which I guess I failed to include in my last post)...if you had an infant which you decided not to work because of obvious signs of death. could you be put into a situation where you 'have to' work them?

 

[reaper]

In a single word NO!

 

[Emtgirl21]

I believe it is less traumatic to wrap the baby in his/her favorite blanet or with their favorite stuffed animal and to calmly explain to their parents that you are very sorry but that their baby is gone and let them rock it or whatever and say goodbye. Just time to wrap their head around it and work thur it. Sure its going to be a long road to healing but I dont think me ripping their infant out of their arms and running for the truck is going to do anything but provide false hope and emotional trauma.

My husband is a firefighter and he works all pedi codes until an ambulance arrives. He believes that parents need to feel that we did everything we could. But he wouldnt work an adult with a extensive down time or trauma.

I'm not talking about witnessed arrest or warm babies I'm talking about cold blue babies in warm environments.

 

[Hastings]

I find discussions like this as futile as discussions over whether DIB or SOB is correct terminology. I'm afraid that while I'm open-minded, there is nothing in this thread that has encouraged me in the least little bit to change my action in these circumstances. My personal experiences are what led to this manner of treatment, and I'm going to continue doing it this way.

 

[traumateam1]

Hastings, you are right, it's not a popular choice.. to work an infant in rigor. 1 year old, 30 year old, 80 year old should all be treated the same. If you have an 80 y/o in rigor.. has been dead overnight. Cold and stiff you would hook up the AED start compressions and give appropriate tx according to your level of care? If the answer is No than it should be the same for the infant.

By working the rigor infant you are, as said before, providing a false hope to that parents. Imagine this: you are called to a residence at 06:00 for an "unresponsive infant" you arrive to find the parents freaking out and the dad attempting to breath for the infant. You approach, take over and assess the infant. Cold, stiff, and blue. You ask the parents if they witnessed the baby stop breathing.. they say "no, we put her/him to bed at __:__pm and he/she never cried throughout the night, my wife went in about 10 minutes ago to feed him/her and she/he wasn't breathing!" You have an infant that, by what you, a medical professional has seen, is a long dead baby now in rigor.
So you have two options:
A. Work the p/t - give a false hope that there baby can be revived. You start CPR and hook up the AED, and either call for ALS or transport to the hospital. All along parents hope are rising, thinking they will have a baby they can take back home. Only to have their hopes CRUSHED again by ALS or a Doc. Now they.. again, have to face the fact that their baby is dead (this time of course it will be a lot harder for them) and they then get a major bill in the mail for all your tx's.
B. You like Emtgirl said: wrap the baby up in his/her blanket with a stuffed animal (if available.. don't go searching thru the house), sit the parents down and explain to them there was nothing that could have been done.

Yes, B is a lot harder to do. You have to tell the parents straight up that their baby is dead. But it is more ethically correct.

You and I both know that an infant, or anyone for that matter, in rigor is beyond saving. We know that, and if you don't you need to go back to school. If you cannot tell the difference between long dead and no hope vs. recently dead and still hope.. than your ticket needs to be pulled and you need to re visit school. Not to be rude or attack you, but this is a serious issue that needs to be corrected. I have learnt things from this site, and I have changed the way I do things because of awesome paramedics in here that have kicked by butt on an issue.

Lividity and rigidity - p/t has no hope. Regardless of age. Don't offer a false hope by working this code. Deal with the issue, be a medical professional and tell the parents.

Is it hard? HECK YES! Do I enjoy telling parents that their infant is dead and there is nothing we can do? HECK NO. Will I do it, despite how hard it is because it is the right thing to do? HECK YES. Will I allow parents to force me to do CPR and other tx's? HECK NO. If they scene becomes not safe I will leave until a LEO arrives.

Seriously think about what we have been saying and what you do. Don't be offended and put your guard down, and really think about it. Families could really benifit from you possibly changing the way you work a rigor infant.
Take care,
Mitch

 

[eric2068]

Sids

I feel the worst thing a medic can do is give a family "false hope". It doesn't matter if the patient is a infant or grandma, there is always a loss. My advice, if the patient is showing signs that are inconsistent with life, then call it. Yes it sucks to tell a family member that their child is dead, but that is part of life. We see the worst parts of life, we try to protect people from that part, but sometimes you can't. Be there for the family, be kind, compassionate, caring, and when the run is over, have good cry if you want to, and get ready for the next call. Good Luck.

 

[triemal04]

Best quote of the thread:

EMS is the real world, and I'd sure hate for a patient in the real world to rely on my six weeks of training for definitive medical care.

Worst quote of the thread:

My personal experiences are what led to this manner of treatment, and I'm going to continue doing it this way.

Clear enough?

 

[traumateam1]

Welcome to the tribe eric2068!!!

:beerchug::beerchug:

 

[eric2068]

Thank you. I really hope to have some great discussions here.

 

[traumateam1]

Oh you will. Expect to get your butt kicked a few times in here tho. Mine has been kicked quite a bit lol But I've learnt A LOT from people in here.. so when I get my butt kicked I'm also learning something new ^_^ I love this place.. It's awesome

 

[KEVD18]

Best quote of the thread:


Worst quote of the thread:


Clear enough?

its only makes it clear that you dont understand the issue at bar.

 

[Ridryder911]

Actually the only thing I see clear is one that one wants to do it their way, no matter the data, costs to the families, or emotional trauma. Rather what makes them comfortable, irriguardless.

R/r 911

 

[mikie]

You guys/gals should check out an article I posted in the EMS-Related news...

http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?p=98855

About SIDS, figured it might spark an interest, pertaining to this thread.

 

[triemal04]

its only makes it clear that you dont understand the issue at bar.

The simple fact that someone (a paramedic no less, someone with a supposed advanced level of education and medical knowledge) is willing to blatantly disregard essentially all data on the subject and continue to do something because of their own "personal experience" is what makes it such a bad thing to say. Doing something like that for yourself, in this situation, is flat out wrong. And doing it for no reason other than because of something in your own past is even more wrong.

Not everything should need to be explained; some things should just be a wee bit obvious.

Edit: Dear god, did it ever cross your mind that people believing this is why EMS has many of the problems it does today? I mean hey, ignore the books, ignore what studies show, ignore science, ignore everything you were taught and just do whatever you want based on "personal experience!" That's the way to get things done! After all, you know so much better than all those silly edjumaketed fools out there! Please. Someone saying that they will continue to do something only because of their own experiences when the data does not back them up and, in fact, says the opposite is wrong in almost any situation. But so many people do it (especially in EMS) that it's almost an accepted idea sometimes.

 

[KEVD18]

i think you're mistaken as to what side of this argument I'm on.

both of those statements you are wholly inaccurate.

if somebody isn't happy with their level of training and doesn't feel its adequate to do their job they should immediately cease working and either increase their training or quit.

completely ignoring established standards and protocols backed by reams upon reams of data to make yourself feel better about your job is childish, reckless, ignorant and ridiculous.

 

[triemal04]

i think you're mistaken as to what side of this argument I'm on.

both of those statements you are wholly inaccurate.

if somebody isn't happy with their level of training and doesn't feel its adequate to do their job they should immediately cease working and either increase their training or quit.

completely ignoring established standards and protocols backed by reams upon reams of data to make yourself feel better about your job is childish, reckless, ignorant and ridiculous.

No, I get what side of the arguement you're on. Rather I think you're misunderstanding what I meant.

The first was a bit of a joke; a basic admitting in a roundabout way that six weeks of education isn't enough to really help a paitent. Funny.

The second...I agree with you. That's what I'm saying, and my problem with it, and why it should be posted on the front page as the worst thing a medical professional can EVER say and one of the causes of the degradation of EMS in America.

The fact that Hasting's believed/believes that it is acceptable to say something like that, let alone actually do something along those lines is inexscusable.

 

[KEVD18]

so we're arguing about agreeing with eachother?