Sick as ten men

Melclin

Melclin

Forum Deputy Chief
Messages
1,796
Reaction score
4
Points
0
Went to this job today. It was an interesting one.

0745: 22YOM, Overdose - Unconscious/not alert. You are called to a supported accommodation facility for people with mental illnesses and intellectual disabilities.

You find a bloke face down on his bed, the floor is covered in rubbish and some drug paraphernalia including syringes.

Obviously you move him to a place and a position free of dangers and obstructions you your assessment.

A - Pt has jaw excessive jaw tone and you cannot open the mouth much more than 2-3cm. Pt gags with the placement of OPA and NPAs. Cannot visualise the upper airway past the tongue. I elected not to scope this bloke at this stage due to the presence of a gag reflex. There is some stridor.

B - Pt is breathing with long slow laboured breaths. Tidal volume is variably adequate. RR 10.

C- Pt has a week pulse of 40, slow and irregular. BP 140/80. Pt is pale and cold.

D- GCS - 3, Pupils equal, sluggish (3mm), eyes deviated to the right.

Other bits: Temp: 30.4 C (87F), SpO2: 78%, BSL: "Lo",


Hx: unspecified mental illness, drug abuse of unknown kind and interlectual disability.
Meds: Valproate, Prozac.
allegies: NKA.

PhysEx: Pt has urinated and opened his bowels. No puncture marks are evident.

After 5 minutes on 100% oxygen via a closed ventilation circuit
- the pt begin coughing/periodically vigorously exhaling.
- there is a more pronounced upper airway snore (now more of a gurgle).
- complete trismus is evident.
- bloody, frothy sputum is being blow from the mouth.
- the pt is GCS 4 (e1v1m2), pt is exhibiting decerebrate posturing.
- pupils are equal and sluggish at 8mm, no deviation.
 
I have to disagree with your assessment. This patient does not sound as sick as ten men.

He sounds as sick as three hospitals.

Had he not become sicker my first thought would have been to treat him as you did, transport to hospital. I don't like playing with cold people, and they don't like playing with me. They have a nasty tendency to do strange and unpredictable things when you start poking them with drugs and stuff.

Was there any evidence of drug overdose? I know you stated no punctures visible, but were all his meds present and correct? Any trauma evident?

What was his ECG like?

I presume you called for Intensive Care backup? Did you do anything about the blood sugar?

My first impression would be brain injury secondary to probably prolonged hypoxia, maybe as a result of drug overdose. Of course the list of differentials is long and illustrious; this is just my first gut feeling.

I personally would have used a recoil bag to give 100%, as you aren't flushing out nitrogen with the circuit. Did his SpO2 come up?

Ok, so oxygenation has occurred and now every thing has gone down the :censored::censored::censored::censored:ter. I would have very much preferred to manage this chap conservatively given how badly wrong things can go, but now that he has some (presumably neurogenic) pulmonary oedema with an increasingly compromised airway, he has kind of forced our hand.

Man, nothing good can come from this... How far are you from hospital? Can you just load and go and make it someone else's problem?

We would normally want to give him a bit of fluid before we give him any vasoactive drugs to stave off the inevitable fall in BP, however all that will do is flush cold blood from the peripheries into central circulation with predictably bad effect. His BP is actually quite high given the rest of his vital signs, so maybe we will let that go by...

So do we need to carry out an RSI? Only problem is, the only paralytic I have is sux, and that is not a drug I want to use in this chap - the potential bradycardic effects are going to be heightened by the hypothermia and hypoxia, the duration will be prolonged (not that much of a problem) not to mention the fact that he has possibly been face down for some time, potentially with resultant hyperkalemia. Rocuronium would be better, but not an option for me. Crap.

Well, a decision has to be made. If we are close to hospital, continue basic care and make him someone else's problem. If that is not an option, we need to control his airway and ventilation so RSI it is. Very small dose of sedation/analgesia, succinylcholine 1.5mg/kg, pass the tube and probably start CPR.

After that, manage whatever crops up and wait for the :censored::censored::censored::censored: storm that is to come.
 
Ah I really could have set this up better. Thats what you get for trying program your DVR at the same time.

Firstly, this bloke was last seen late last pm. No indication of suicidal ideation. Carers were not aware he was shooting up in his room. Was found this morning when a carer checked on him when he didn't come to breakfast. No further hx.

My partner was jockeying and had a good look, I never had time to check once I took his airway on. There was evidence of IV drug use, presumably heroin. Medications are handed out by carers and there were no empty packets that we found.

Original ECG: Sinus brady with occasional escape beats.

Hospitals and backup
As it turns out this was literally across the road from a major hospital. Had the ambulance broken down, I reckon we would have just walked to ED. My partner got some intensive care backup as more of an arse covering exercise more than anything I think. He wasn't even remotely interested.

Some more
After 15 minutes of O2 and 25 grams of dextrose, he presents largely the same as the 5 minute mark in addition to:
- A BSL of 4.5
- Pupils are equal and sluggish at 3mm.
- BP: 180/100
- Sp02 100%
- HR: 110 Sinus Tach


Stuff we did
In regards to the O2, early on I flush the circuit regularly. I know its still not a perfect 100%, but I like having the ability to clearly monitor RR and Vt. I'm aware that I might get better results with a BVM and I'd switch if the sats hadn't come good.

To be honest we didn't clue into the hypothermia early one. My partner went straight for the dextrose when the bsl came back. I think there was a certain amount of we're right next to hospital, lets do his sugar and boogie type thinking. To be honest I didn't think of it, I was buried in his airway.

Good thing to keep in mind for next time.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
This is what we would call a status one patient (critical problem) and Brown has a feeling the EM and ICU Consultants are going to be saying bad things about us dragging them out from watching telly to do some work on this chap.

He needs to go to a major hospital with much fastness and early notification.

It sounds like he has had some massive neurogenic problem, probably nunngered his hypothalmus and brain stem.

If we can't put some form of adjunct in then we need to be ringing up for Intensive Care to come RSI him or if major hospital is closer than considering this bloke is already pretty buggered lets just get him on the scoop and out of there as if we are escaping the taping of a Richard Simmons commercial *Shudder

Re suxamethonium in hypothermia - Smash can you elaborate please?

Now, do pass Brown the Masterfoods jar, Brown does like some seasoning on Brown's vegetables.
 
Re suxamethonium in hypothermia - Smash can you elaborate please?
Click to expand...


Suxamethonium chloride

Side effects include malignant hyperthermia, muscle pains, acute rhabdomyolysis with hyperkalemia, transient ocular hypertension, constipation[1] and changes in cardiac rhythm including bradycardia, cardiac arrest, and ventricular dysrhythmias


Malignant hyperthermia (MH) or malignant hyperpyrexia[1] is a rare life-threatening condition that is usually triggered by exposure to certain drugs used for general anesthesia; specifically, the volatile anesthetic agents and the neuromuscular blocking agent, succinylcholine. In susceptible individuals, these drugs can induce a drastic and uncontrolled increase in skeletal muscle oxidative metabolism, which overwhelms the body's capacity to supply oxygen, remove carbon dioxide, and regulate body temperature, eventually leading to circulatory collapse and death if not treated quickly
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Martyn said:
Suxamethonium chloride

Side effects include malignant hyperthermia, muscle pains, acute rhabdomyolysis with hyperkalemia, transient ocular hypertension, constipation[1] and changes in cardiac rhythm including bradycardia, cardiac arrest, and ventricular dysrhythmias


Malignant hyperthermia (MH) or malignant hyperpyrexia[1] is a rare life-threatening condition that is usually triggered by exposure to certain drugs used for general anesthesia; specifically, the volatile anesthetic agents and the neuromuscular blocking agent, succinylcholine. In susceptible individuals, these drugs can induce a drastic and uncontrolled increase in skeletal muscle oxidative metabolism, which overwhelms the body's capacity to supply oxygen, remove carbon dioxide, and regulate body temperature, eventually leading to circulatory collapse and death if not treated quickly
Click to expand...

MH is a severe side effect of succinylcholine, but my guess is that Smash is referring to sux's tendency to cause bradycardia (esp in a patient that potentially has elevated K+) potentiating the bradycardia already present from the hypothermia.
 
Across the street from a tertiary facility I'd simply place O2, fix the BGL, throw some blankets on and boogey.

In the middle of nowhere like I usually work? Pretty much the same, except replace "O2" with "preoxygentation and RSI as appropriate". We use rocc so I'm not worried about bradycardia as much. However, given that the trismus is likely neurogenic he's likely going to need muscle relaxers. I'm not using one of the crap "DAI" protocols out there as I'm likely to end up with a patient who has trismus, and is difficult to ventilate due to loss of muscle tone elsewhere.

Also I'd start an infusion of warmed fluid, probably giving at least the standard 20ml/kg bolus as the kid's probably septic. Watch for signs of severe hyperkalemia and treat as appropriate, maybe a foley to see what his urine looked like, if it's rhabdo'ish I might consult med control about adding some bicarb to the fluid infusion.
 
I'm trying to follow along with everything going on in this case. So my EMT-B question is, what's the possible etiology of the bloody frothy sputum?
 
usalsfyre said:
Across the street from a tertiary facility I'd simply place O2, fix the BGL, throw some blankets on and boogey.

In the middle of nowhere like I usually work? Pretty much the same, except replace "O2" with "preoxygentation and RSI as appropriate".
Click to expand...
that's pretty much what i was thinking
 
Simusid said:
I'm trying to follow along with everything going on in this case. So my EMT-B question is, what's the possible etiology of the bloody frothy sputum?
Click to expand...

In which other group of patients do we sometimes see bloody frothy sputum?

How is frothy sputum different than regular sputum and what does this tell us about where it is coming from?

If we know where the frothy sputum comes from what would make it tinged with blood? Tip: Think about the system in question's normal circulatory dynamics and the effect increased hydrostatic pressure would have on the clinical presentation we see here
 
usalsfyre said:
Across the street from a tertiary facility I'd simply place O2, fix the BGL, throw some blankets on and boogey.

In the middle of nowhere like I usually work? Pretty much the same, except replace "O2" with "preoxygentation and RSI as appropriate". We use rocc so I'm not worried about bradycardia as much. However, given that the trismus is likely neurogenic he's likely going to need muscle relaxers. I'm not using one of the crap "DAI" protocols out there as I'm likely to end up with a patient who has trismus, and is difficult to ventilate due to loss of muscle tone elsewhere.

Also I'd start an infusion of warmed fluid, probably giving at least the standard 20ml/kg bolus as the kid's probably septic. Watch for signs of severe hyperkalemia and treat as appropriate, maybe a foley to see what his urine looked like, if it's rhabdo'ish I might consult med control about adding some bicarb to the fluid infusion.
Click to expand...

An excellent summary. What's a DAI protocol?
 
DAI is gangsta old school butchershop massive afro style midazolam assisted intubation which was banned in Australia and New Zealand during the early 2000s because its super hella white bread styles bad news
 
MrBrown said:
In which other group of patients do we sometimes see bloody frothy sputum?

How is frothy sputum different than regular sputum and what does this tell us about where it is coming from?

If we know where the frothy sputum comes from what would make it tinged with blood? Tip: Think about the system in question's normal circulatory dynamics and the effect increased hydrostatic pressure would have on the clinical presentation we see here
Click to expand...

CHF or a pulmonary edema. I was trying to tie those into his other symptoms. For a PE I would expect tachycardia not brady, and I don't immediately think CHF for a 22 year old with a BP better than mine.
 
I am sort of but not quite but almost tempted to say he is a huffer...it sort of ties in with the medical problems he is experiencing plus you say he is an addict...!!!
 
MrBrown said:
DAI is gangsta old school butchershop massive afro style midazolam assisted intubation which was banned in Australia and New Zealand during the early 2000s because its super hella white bread styles bad news
Click to expand...

Would someone please translate this from brownese to English. Lol
 
bigbaldguy said:
Would someone please translate this from brownese to English. Lol
Click to expand...

The only thing that I can translate is that this is something that Mr. Brown can't do any more. Besides that, I have no F'en clue.
 
bigbaldguy said:
Would someone please translate this from brownese to English. Lol
Click to expand...

I'm getting pretty good at translating brownese, but that one has me looking like a monkey doing a math problem. :rofl:
 
What Brown is saying is that trying to get an endotracheal tube into a patient with trismus using a benzodiazepine alone is a very bad idea and causes more harm than good. If RSI is to be done it needs to be done properly with a paralytic (or more properly with Roc rather than sux, but we all deal with what we have) as well as sedation and analgesia.

As for the sux and hypothermia, usalsfyre has nailed it. Sux has a tendency to cause bradycardia. It's not a problem in most people, and in fact we often don't notice it at all, however in someone who is this cold and who wants to be really bradycardic, I don't like to give them an excuse to go further down that route. Especially as we can expect whatever drugs we give to hang around longer thanks to the hypothermia. I'm also vary wary of sux in people who are exhibiting Cushing's Triad for the same reason (although by that stage it is probably a moot point anyway)

As for the pink frothy sputum, neurogenic pulmonary oedema (which is really a diagnosis of exclusion, but I think it's a safe bet in this patient) occurs when there is some kind of neurological insult and usually raised ICP. The exact mechanism and pathophysiology is (like all interesting things) pretty unclear.

It seems that increased ICP causes inappropriate sympathetic activation amongst other things. This causes increased peripheral and pulmonary vasoconstriction, decreased LV compliance and increased LVEDP, increased left atrial pressure, a shift of blood into pulmonary vasculature and increased pulmonary capillary pressure which along with increased pulmonary capillary permeability results in pulmonary oedema.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top