Self defense

[Hunter]

I wasn't sure where to put this.

With all the talk of face eaters and heart and brain eating people. It's made me think about safety. I feel like with us bring sent into peoples homes regularly it makes us an easy target for one of these wackos to call us and use us as easy victims.

With that being said any one have ideas as to improve the safety for EMS providers when LEO isn't immediately available?

 

[Shishkabob]

Fight dirty, fight to win. There's a reason why police have all those different tools on their belt, and it's to give them the advantage over the fool who decided to fight them.

There is no such thing as fighting fair when fighting for your life.

 

[CANDawg]

Carry a loaded syringe of Midazolam on your belt! Stick em' and then its just a waiting game. :rofl:

 

[WestMetroMedic]

My best defensive tactic is also my worst enemy - my mouth. When all else fails, that magic orange button on my radio makes police appear out of thin air.

Actually, we educate on defensive tactics and we also have a wonderful tool at our disposal, and one that is sure to spark debate - we are one of 5 services in the nation that use handcuffs as our restraint method. Although taboo, these are an effective, safe and humane method of patient restraint when applied by properly educated professionals and given proper assessment during their application. Our clientele dictates this and also the fact that they are easy to apply quickly and safely and with proper pharmaceutical adjuncts, make for a safer EMS course for patients and providers.

 

[325Medic]

Fight dirty, fight to win. There's a reason why police have all those different tools on their belt, and it's to give them the advantage over the fool who decided to fight them.

There is no such thing as fighting fair when fighting for your life.

Damn right! I have taken Krav Maga in the past and used to carry one of those 2 C cell mag lights until I read an article on how the lawyers call them lead pipes. I used to call it Bronson, after some show I watched.:rofl: Now I am older and wear pratically nothing on my belt including no knives. I agree with Linuss. The person that fights you, and I have been in my share is fighting dirty. Just make sure you're elevation of force is the same or greater w/o getting too crazy. Whats that mean. If you put them down, get out and dont monkey stomp their *** until their brains are on you're shoe.

325.

 

[bigbaldguy]

When you have a question go straight to the experts.

http://www.emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=28744

 

[RocketMedic]

I was recently presented with a similar situation when a very muscular, strong patient got very aggressive very quickly. Luckily, he wasn't in the truck, but I was cut off from my entry into the vehicle.

Always have a way out. Best-case, it makes patient extrication easier. Worst-case, it's a lifesaver.

I also carry a small utility knife and wear good, runnable boots.

 

[CANDawg]

Anyone in Canada ever have any self defence issues?

Police here tend to view pretty much any self-defence with a weapon as 'excessive force' and like to lay charges against the original victim. I'd be concerned with brandishing a knife if someone came at me, because I'd be just as likely to end up in jail as he was. (Especially if there was a medical reason for the aggression.)

 

[waaaemt]

where i worked, we had a guy originally from philadelphia and where he worked, emts had to wear bullet proof vests.

i also talked to an old CNA who was a medic somewhere in california who said he had a vest and carried a .45? i've never heard of that, even in ohio where medics are sworn officers, they don't carry. but in california ghettos i wouldn't be surprised. any californians heard of that?

 

[Veneficus]

Actually, we educate on defensive tactics and we also have a wonderful tool at our disposal, and one that is sure to spark debate - we are one of 5 services in the nation that use handcuffs as our restraint method. Although taboo, these are an effective, safe and humane method of patient restraint .

Actually, they are not humane.

A humane restraint is one where the person wearing them cannot cause self injury trying to escape.

I think there is a valid argument for using handcuffs in EMS, but I do not agree with it.

 

[DesertMedic66]

where i worked, we had a guy originally from philadelphia and where he worked, emts had to wear bullet proof vests.

i also talked to an old CNA who was a medic somewhere in california who said he had a vest and carried a .45? i've never heard of that, even in ohio where medics are sworn officers, they don't carry. but in california ghettos i wouldn't be surprised. any californians heard of that?

Haven't heard of this anywhere in California.

 

[systemet]

With that being said any one have ideas as to improve the safety for EMS providers when LEO isn't immediately available?

The same old answers as always:

* Good proactive dispatchers who identify potentially dangerous situations and initiate mandatory staging.

* A clearly defined staging policy that doesn't punish crews or dispatch for exercising judgment, supported and defended by management.

* Good working communication with police to get assistance fast in problematic situations.

* Appropriate PPE, including safety glasses, +/- ballistic vests.

* An organisational culture that doesn't encourage crewmembers to enter dangerous scenes or be reluctant to involve law enforcement.

* Standing orders for chemical restraint.

* Mature crews that don't rush into situations without evaluating them appropriately.

* Policies for dispatch to check on the welfare of crews after they've been on scene for x minutes.

* Panic buttons; help codes on radios.

------------------------

If you want to go beyond that into all the "What if..." situations that happen when all of these fail, the here are some thoughts.

- I don't believe weekend courses in self defense every couple of years provide a functional ability to defend yourself.

- I don't believe that weapons, be they pepper spray, batons, tasers or firearms are worth the potential hassle in terms of training hours, risk of self-injury, and risk of the device being used on the paramedic. I think they are likely to create more problems.

Most of the situations I've been in have been little more than a sloppy wrestling match with some drunk or psych patient who doesn't have a real intent to injure, but has reacted negatively for whatever reason. They haven't been true life or death situations, but they have resulted in people being put on the floor so that I can either sit on them or run away.

The cops will probably protect you within limits. If you cut someone up with a knife, you have probably exceeded these limits unless they were armed. If you break someone's jaw / orbit / remove their dentition with a mag-lite, the same applies. They will likely be obligated to charge you, unless there are some truly extenuating circumstances.

I would argue that being physically strong, and large would probably help you (1) not get hurt (2) not have to fight in the first place against a smaller, rational person, (3) be able to win a wrestling match against an untrained individual.

If you want to train martial arts, I would do it because it's fun, more than because you're terrified of a life-or-death situation arising on the ambulance. Because it's a whole lot of work for a fairly unlikely occurrence. It's not one weekend every two weeks.

If you were to train martial arts, a grappling based martial art would probably be very helpful for both types of encounters, e.g. wrestling, judo, brazilian jiu jitsu. Or perhaps a striking art with elements of grappling, e.g. muay thai.

If you want to win a street fight, it helps to be big, strong, cheat (i.e. be the multiple attacker, or surprise attacker), be armed, and have a grounding in an "alive" martial art, like those mentioned above, or boxing. You may get charged if you break someone's nose and detach their retina in a situation where you weren't injured and can't justify the level of response, but that's where judgment comes in.

But I would argue that this sort of talk is mostly fantasy-paranoia. We all probably know people who've been hurt, and I imagine most of us have technically been "assaulted" at some point without suffering real injury. But all the martial arts training in the world is unlikely to help you if your assailant is armed, or their first blow(s) incapacitate you. The risk of such an event happening is low, and the training required to actually be able to defend against it is quite high.

 

[Bullets]

Groin strikes followed by power knees to the nose and face, I don't and wont rely on weapons as an EMT because they can be used against me. IF I had a firearm that is a separate issue. Hands, feet, teeth and nails, I ain't going out like that

I prefer the zip tie cuffs for rapid restraint, I will usually use then until I can apply a soft restraint

 

[BandageBrigade]

One of my favorite sayings involving self defense "The only time you should be involved in a fair fight is when you are in a fight thats ok to lose"

As linuss said. Fight dirty. You do what you have to do to walk away afterwords.

 

[WestMetroMedic]

Actually, they are not humane.

A humane restraint is one where the person wearing them cannot cause self injury trying to escape.

I think there is a valid argument for using handcuffs in EMS, but I do not agree with it.

Yes, handcuffs improperly applied and poorly monitored have the ability to injure a patient, no disagreement there. A properly assessed gapped and double locked handcuff applied to a patient with continuous one on one and used in conjunction with an appropriate chemical restraint and only by continuously educated professionals who understand their risks mitigates this risk. The patients who are being handcuffed, are ones who could easily self injure themselves more severely or muster a more prolonged use of force event if those silly Velcro restraints were used based on time needed fit application and ease of application.

Every use of restraints requires us to have law enforcement arrive to cross check our intervention use and also to sign a transportation hold.

Our quality assurance committee supervisors also review every use of physical restraints and track patients injury because we do live in a wonderfully litigious society and we know the real possibility of losing this valuable intervention if they get used incorrectly. We rarely have a patient who suffers any thing displeasure including sore wrists afterwards. Our hospital recognizes that we have deep pockets and certainly would not let us keep them if we hadn't shown a 35+ year history of responsible and appropriate use of this restraint method.

 

[Veneficus]

Yes, handcuffs improperly applied and poorly monitored have the ability to injure a patient, no disagreement there. A properly assessed gapped and double locked handcuff applied to a patient with continuous one on one and used in conjunction with an appropriate chemical restraint and only by continuously educated professionals who understand their risks mitigates this risk. The patients who are being handcuffed, are ones who could easily self injure themselves more severely or muster a more prolonged use of force event if those silly Velcro restraints were used based on time needed fit application and ease of application.

Every use of restraints requires us to have law enforcement arrive to cross check our intervention use and also to sign a transportation hold.

Our quality assurance committee supervisors also review every use of physical restraints and track patients injury because we do live in a wonderfully litigious society and we know the real possibility of losing this valuable intervention if they get used incorrectly. We rarely have a patient who suffers any thing displeasure including sore wrists afterwards. Our hospital recognizes that we have deep pockets and certainly would not let us keep them if we hadn't shown a 35+ year history of responsible and appropriate use of this restraint method.

I was offering the medically accepted definition of a humane restraint, not my opinion.

Unless your service is using "hairy handcuffs" as marketed by purveyors of erotic goods, the skin to metal contact on limited surface area is capable and likely to cause injury.

The same is also true of the "zip tie" style plastic ones. Which is why they are also not used in medicine.

Here you have given a list of caviats on how to prevent/minimize injury using a nonhumanitarian restraint. But that does not modify the intrinsic properties of the device itself.

If you consider the types of restraints considered "humanitarian" things they all have in common are:

A. Wide surface area which minimzes focused force transfer.

B. A material that requires considerable effort to cause even abrasions. (the most minor of traumatic injury)

I agree any restraint applied improperly can be inhumane, particularly if it affects vital body function, but what ultimately defines humane is the intrinsic properties of the device, not the application of it.

If you are interested, the most convincing argument for the use of inhumane restraints in a medical environment is a patient so dangerous that providers cannot be considered safe unless such a high degree of retraint is used. The details of this argument can be applied in hospital and to EMS in various circumstances.

However, with the use of "relatively" safe chemical restraint, even this argument is highly debatable.

Particularly since the initial physical restraint requirements are the same prior to "safely" applying a long term physical restraint or a chemical one.

It is very difficult to make a case for the use of physical restraint over chemical past the initial grappling stage.

 

[rescue1]

Unless your service is using "hairy handcuffs" as marketed by purveyors of erotic goods, the skin to metal contact on limited surface area is capable and likely to cause injury.

Well, looks like I have something to ask for on our ambulances now...

 

[Veneficus]

Well, looks like I have something to ask for on our ambulances now...

Yea, probably not a good idea to bring your own...

It would be tough to explain and likely nobody would believe you anyway.

Not to mention wait until the loacal news hears about it...

 

[Sasha]

But mine are furry. You said those were okay.

 

[Veneficus]

but mine are furry. You said those were okay.

tmi