Scene Safe?

[emtstation600]

h34r: We had a call this morning for a diabetic. We arrive on scene and out cot wil not fit into the apt. Patient is alert. I go to talk to the patient and see a hand gun next to him in the holster. I walk out and tell my partner he has a gun next to him and ask if he wants to call PD. He told me not to call them, he walks in and takes the gun from his side. How safe is this. I know what i wanted to do is call PD there to secure the scene. How Dumb can one person be? Let me know all of your Imput on this

 

[MedicPrincess]

Scene safety is often, IMO, the persons perception of events. Your partner saw a non-combative, alert, non-violent patient sitting in a chair who just so happened to have a gun near him. You saw a gun, period. He felt he could difuse the potential situation in the easiest way possible and was comfortable doing so. It worked for him.

Sometimes the police can make situation worse just by their presence. If you'd have pulled out, called the police and waited, he may have become a combative violent patient.

Like I said, its perception and some gut feelings.

I have entered calls for an "unconscious" patient with a crowd around who were having a party and not thought twice about calling police. And on the flipside, I once requested SO backup for an illegal burn, just because I had a "feeling."

Nothing is set in stone, black and white, it has to be this way or the person is dumb or made a bad decision or was wrong. Perception and your gut will do a lot in a lot of instances.

 

[emtstation600]

This is True there. I have an associates with a specification in Law Enforcement. Which i have all the training the Cops have. This is a Situation that it would have been nice to have them. we were called for a diabetic. We did not know what was going on and they can become violent due to the sugar. this is why i wanted the police to be there to secure the scene. my partner just went in a grabbed the gun and then told him he was going to move it. that move there can set any one off who love their gun. this apperared to be a home protection weapon. this is just personal prefrence on this. from the training i have gotten i wanted to pull out and have pd there to secure the weapon.

 

[hfdff422]

If you were not comfortable taking the gun from him and setting it at greater than arms reach, I would have called for LE. The time delay in a diabetic situation could allow the patient to become combative before your partner starts to deal with the situation. The best thing would be for you to do whats comfortable for you. It was not to start introducing new elements into the situation and continue to hope it goes well. You either deal with it right then, or call for law enforcement- there were no other safe alternatives.

 

[Jon]

I think that telling the patient that you need to move 'this' so you can work, and asking him where he would like you to put it (perhaps a lock-box in the next room, or a drawer, etc) wouldn't be a bad idea. If the patient was psych, it would be different - PD would be on their way instanty. If the patient pointed the gun at me, I'd have the whole friggin' SWAT team invited.

This was a day in medic school. My lead instructor is a "gun nut" to some. He is better described as a proud, card-carring NRA member and a STRONG supporter of the 2nd amendment.

We had a class on weapons - he showed us part of his gun collection, including holsters, etc, including safety. Guns don't kill people. People kill people

Jon

 

[rescuecpt]

I think it's a good idea for anyone in EMS to learn how to clear a gun (take out the magazine and bullets). IMHO, G*D forbid you find yourself in any sort of struggle with a weapon - if you get your hands on it the best thing to do is make it nothing more than a heavy piece of metal.

 

[CaptainPanic]

Yes I believe I would probably add that as part of a CEU program-
Gun Safety for EMS. Learn about diff. kinds of gun, its ammo, caliber, and how to safely clear it and remove all live amunition from the chamber and clip without blowing your hand or your partner away. I would compare it to a hunter safety course.

-CP

 

[TTLWHKR]

Could have stepped on the patients hands, and held him down with your knee.

That's what I was told to do in an EMS on the Street class.

 

[Jon]

Clearing a gun was part of our discussion, but the big thing was that a gun won't go off it the trigger isn't pulled.

If, for example, your gang-banger drops a 9mm out of his waistband when you are trauma stripping him, putting the gun in your narc safe or a locked cabinet is a good "short term" solution to keeping everyone safe.

Jon

 

[AnthonyM83]

I think you should do what you're comfortable with, as long as you do it with a calm mind and taking in the whole picture, both from a safety AND medical point of view.

I personally would have felt most comfortable taking immediate control of the gun by moving it like your partner did and saying I needed to put that to the side while I was working with him. Another option would be to just ask him to move it.


I would recommend against most non-LE clearing a gun. Not all gun clearings go according to plan. Some could be jammed and if you start pulling/pushing to hard on stuff, it can slip and you have it go off b/c you catch it quickly and put pressure on the wrong area. If it's cocked, that could lead to some surprises... as would thinking a gun i cleared when it's not or someone being angry you're messing with their weapon. If it's been used in a crime, you're also messing up evidence.

Actually, best move might really be not to touch it. Move the patient away from the gun, instead, if possible. Work on the patient so you're in between him/her and the weapon.

 

[ffemt8978]

Originally posted by AnthonyM83@Dec 5 2005, 05:30 PM
Actually, best move might really be not to touch it. Move the patient away from the gun, instead, if possible. Work on the patient so you're in between him/her and the weapon.

Very good advice.

 

[Jon]

Originally posted by ffemt8978+Dec 5 2005, 07:46 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (ffemt8978 @ Dec 5 2005, 07:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-AnthonyM83@Dec 5 2005, 05:30 PM
Actually, best move might really be not to touch it. Move the patient away from the gun, instead, if possible. Work on the patient so you're in between him/her and the weapon.

Very good advice. [/b][/quote]
Yes.

My suggestion on putting a gun in a narc-safe or similar locked cabinet was ONLY a short-term solution when the gun is already in the rig with the patient... gets it out of the way and secured. At the ED, gets turned over to PD, and you would notify your supervisor and complete an incident report in addition to the tripsheet.

Jon

 

[CaptainPanic]

Originally posted by MedicStudentJon@Dec 5 2005, 06:51 PM
Clearing a gun was part of our discussion, but the big thing was that a gun won't go off it the trigger isn't pulled.

If, for example, your gang-banger drops a 9mm out of his waistband when you are trauma stripping him, putting the gun in your narc safe or a locked cabinet is a good "short term" solution to keeping everyone safe.

Jon

Be careful when having a loaded gun in transport. In most states it is illegel to have a loaded gun in a moving vehicle and its also unsafe, because if you hit a hard enough bump it could be enough to discharge it.

Example: When I was a junior in highschool, some of my buddies went to the next county over for a deer hunt on one of their grandparents proprties. They never saw anything and mid-afternoon they decided to head back. While crossing the Dardanelle bridge there was construction going on and when they went from bridge to pavement they hit a hard bump, and BANG! There gun went off and it narrowly missed his friends head and went through the side of the truck cab. Luckily no one was injured. Now they know why they should never have a loaded gun in a moving vehicle.

It would be wise to unload the gun and leave the chamber open and have it in your narcotics safe, and keep the ammo up front in the glove compartment, another thing is to keep the ammo seperate from the gun, makes ith arder for your patient to use the gun against you.

-CP

 

[CaptainPanic]

Also adding another thing, if you are unfamiliar with guns, have your local PD teach your squad about guns, it could be a 8hr class and if your state allows it, could be counted towards your CEU hours.

-CP

 

[Jon]

CP.... i'm not saying it is the best idea, but a better alternative to leaving the gun on the floor of the squad while treating the shot gang-banger.

This is the suggestion for those of us who "don't like guns"

Jon

 

[Luno]

I'm gonna have to agree with m83, atleast in theory, altering the state of the weapon, (placing on safe, clearing it, etc...) not only opens you up to potential liability, but also increases the chance of a negligent discharge (ND). Even if loaded, the weapon is safe, as long as there is no external interface. About LE clearing weapons, well, lets just say I was almost shot by an LE who happened to have an ND. In my opinion, the safest course of action is not to touch (yes, LE included), unless you know 100% how to safely handle the weapon.

 

[rescuecpt]

Originally posted by MedicStudentJon@Dec 6 2005, 01:21 PM
This is the suggestion for those of us who "don't like guns"

Guns I like. It's people I don't like.

 

[hfdff422]

Originally posted by rescuecpt+Dec 6 2005, 02:33 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (rescuecpt @ Dec 6 2005, 02:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-MedicStudentJon@Dec 6 2005, 01:21 PM
This is the suggestion for those of us who "don't like guns"

Guns I like. It's people I don't like. [/b][/quote]
AMEN

 

[DT4EMS]

Originally posted by Luno@Dec 6 2005, 02:27 PM
I'm gonna have to agree with m83, atleast in theory, altering the state of the weapon, (placing on safe, clearing it, etc...) not only opens you up to potential liability, but also increases the chance of a negligent discharge (ND). Even if loaded, the weapon is safe, as long as there is no external interface. About LE clearing weapons, well, lets just say I was almost shot by an LE who happened to have an ND. In my opinion, the safest course of action is not to touch (yes, LE included), unless you know 100% how to safely handle the weapon.

I am gonna go with Luno on this one. Don't touch it unless you have to.

Moving from the urban to the rural setting several years ago I found EVERYONE has loaded guns in their home. Mostly in their bedroom.

Please remember that if a patients intent was to shoot you, the first time you noticed the gun was when you heard the bang.

It is great that you noticed the gun and advised your partner of it. I would get the patient away from the gun rather than the gun from the patient. If it was holstered I can cover a lot of ground either toward or away before he/she can make it readily capable of lethal use.

Again, great job on your observations.

 

[TalkEMS]

Originally posted by emtstation600@Dec 5 2005, 07:43 AM
I go to talk to the patient and see a hand gun next to him in the holster. I walk out and tell my partner he has a gun next to him and ask if he wants to call PD.

My first question is why would you leave a pt with a gun unattended and then return?

Matt